shaft diameter.

[Sev]

I'm with Ed on his one.

I know that some people will swear that they can load up the white with more spin when using a smaller tip, and maybe they can. But I am sure it is because when switching to a smaller tip, they start hitting the ball differently, perhaps because they become more aware of that part of their stroke. I doubt whether it has anything to do with the physics of having a small tip / different radius of curvature (unless Dr D tells me different of course :wink: )

Mind you I suppose that it doesn't matter whether the cause is a change of stroke or some 'external reality' as long as the effect is there and so long as it lasts. (You wouldn't want to change your cue only to find that any beneficial effect was temporary)

I am interested in the idea that a larger diameter tip is somehow more 'forgiving', and that you need to be playing well to use a small tip consistently. I cannot see any reason why this should be so, but on the other hand, if it is a myth as has been suggested, why is it so widely and firmly believed?

Here is a analogy. I shoot iron sites on pistols. I am very precise with them. Now hand me a pistol with a scope or aimpoint system and I am all over the place. The reason being my perception of what I am viewing has change. I have become more aware of the imperfection in how steady I am actually holding the pistol.
Perhaps a similar result occurs when people switch to a smaller diameter tip. You now are more aware of the entire surface area of the cue ball and are focusing more acutely on a more precise location.
For instance if you had a shaft to experiment with that tapered down to 1mm and you attempted to consistently hit the red dot on cue ball, could you do it consistently stroke after stroke at a given distance? Or would you suddenly become more aware of the inconsistency in your stroke?

Just a thought.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'm with Ed on his one.

I know that some people will swear that they can load up the white with more spin when using a smaller tip, and maybe they can. But I am sure it is because when switching to a smaller tip, they start hitting the ball differently, perhaps because they become more aware of that part of their stroke.

I'm sure this "new cue syndrome" is part of it. Many players report playing better temporarily when they get a new cue or some other new thing makes them pay more attention.

I doubt whether it has anything to do with the physics of having a small tip / different radius of curvature (unless Dr D tells me different of course :wink: )

Tip diameter wouldn't matter, but tip curvature matters a little. If you hit two shots with two tips the same diameter but with differently curvatures (one flatter and the other more rounded), and the center of both shafts are offset the same distance from the center of the CB, the rounder tip will hit the CB slightly farther from the CB's center. Of course, you can also just offset the flatter tip slightly more and hit the same spot, so you're not getting "more spin" with the rounder tip, you're just hitting farther from center than you might think.

I think even this difference is mostly theoretical because the differences in tip curvatures are so slight.

Mind you I suppose that it doesn't matter whether the cause is a change of stroke or some 'external reality' as long as the effect is there and so long as it lasts. (You wouldn't want to change your cue only to find that any beneficial effect was temporary)

I think it's best to know what's going on - that often turns out to be knowledge you can use.

I am interested in the idea that a larger diameter tip is somehow more 'forgiving', and that you need to be playing well to use a small tip consistently. I cannot see any reason why this should be so, but on the other hand, if it is a myth as has been suggested, why is it so widely and firmly believed?

Again, the diameter wouldn't matter but tip curvature can make a little difference for the same reason as described above: a flatter tip will hit a little closer to centerball when the center of the shaft is offset the same amount. But again this difference is probably too slight to matter.

And I think the reason it's so widely believed is that people confuse wider tip with flatter tip in their imaginations.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Here is a analogy. I shoot iron sites on pistols. I am very precise with them. Now hand me a pistol with a scope or aimpoint system and I am all over the place. The reason being my perception of what I am viewing has change. I have become more aware of the imperfection in how steady I am actually holding the pistol.
Perhaps a similar result occurs when people switch to a smaller diameter tip. You now are more aware of the entire surface area of the cue ball and are focusing more acutely on a more precise location.
For instance if you had a shaft to experiment with that tapered down to 1mm and you attempted to consistently hit the red dot on cue ball, could you do it consistently stroke after stroke at a given distance? Or would you suddenly become more aware of the inconsistency in your stroke?

Just a thought.

I think that psychological effect is probably real - I also think it's beneficial. Your stroke doesn't become more erratic because you can see it more clearly, but it might become less erratic for that reason.

pj
chgo

 

[JXMIKE]

wow great post's everyone so far this has been very helpfull.

after reading the above posts i think im going to stick with 13mm, i did shoot with a predator 314 the other night which was 12.75mm and it didnt feel as solid as my 13mm maple shaft.

LD shafts are weird to me after compensating for shots from memory for so long.


Thanks.

 

[Sev]

I think that psychological effect is probably real - I also think it's beneficial. Your stroke doesn't become more erratic because you can see it more clearly, but it might become less erratic for that reason.

pj
chgo

Absolutely. However initially you may become more aware that your stroke is not perfect. Once this becomes apparent to you then you can focus on improving it.
I started practicing with an aimpoint for a while. When I went back to iron sites I noticed an improvement in my shot grouping. I had to become more focused with the aimpoint system in order to achieve better grouping.

 

[cuesblues]

Stroke

Here is a analogy. I shoot iron sites on pistols. I am very precise with them. Now hand me a pistol with a scope or aimpoint system and I am all over the place. The reason being my perception of what I am viewing has change. I have become more aware of the imperfection in how steady I am actually holding the pistol.
Perhaps a similar result occurs when people switch to a smaller diameter tip. You now are more aware of the entire surface area of the cue ball and are focusing more acutely on a more precise location.
For instance if you had a shaft to experiment with that tapered down to 1mm and you attempted to consistently hit the red dot on cue ball, could you do it consistently stroke after stroke at a given distance? Or would you suddenly become more aware of the inconsistency in your stroke?

Just a thought.

That's what I've noticed, the incosistencies.
With a skinnier shaft at first it seems like you are playing better, getting more action on the cue ball, etc.
But after a while since my stroke is inconsistent, I end up going back to a full sized shaft, which seems to have better accuracy.

I agree with Mason also, 12.8 mm seems to be a good happy medium.

What surprises me though is how much the price of a cue drops when the shafts are turned down.
Especially with all of the players out there that like them less than 13mm.
From what is being posted on this thread, even less than 12 MM, which is surprising to read.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I started practicing with an aimpoint for a while. When I went back to iron sites I noticed an improvement in my shot grouping. I had to become more focused with the aimpoint system in order to achieve better grouping.

What are these techniques (aimpoint and iron sites)?

pj
chgo

 

[Sev]

What are these techniques (aimpoint and iron sites)?

pj
chgo

And aim point system is basically red dot that is projected within the center of tube that is much like a scope. Dont confuse it with a laser. That dot is not projected down range. Now imagine you are holding the pistol in firing position and trying to hold this red dot such that it remains steady on the bullseye. The dot is relatively small. Call it 1mm. If you are not steady it appears that the dot is dancing all over the target. The dot is very small in relation to the targe. Especially at a distance.
For shooting it is all breathing techniques, proper grip, stance and rhythm. The human body is actually always in motion. So one the things you do is time your shots to your heartbeat and the slight natural motion of your body. The Russians use a technique that keeps the motion of the pistol and a constant figure 8.
Iron sites are much larger in relation to the target. Your perceived movement is less. Actually you use more instinct. The mind knows when everything is in alignment. The eye is referencing a rear and front site as well as the target all at once. The position or the sites must be aligned properly both horizontally and vertically. Then the perceived position of the sites must be in direct alignment to the center of the target.
Actually many shooter site there weapon to that black section of target is view to be on top of the front site rather than siting the gun in for the bullseye itself.

 

[Ken_4fun]

Well -

Im always learning.

One of the best sources of good information is cue sellers. From the boys at CueAddicts, they got a old old JW cue and it had 13.25+ shafts. I honestly thought that was an exception or special order until I got an older JW from Troy (KOINKID) and it had one of the original shafts at little bigger than 13.0 but not quite 13.25mm. So now I kinda think that shafts from those really old JW were commonly 13.10+ out of the box.

I thougth Balabushkas were at 12.75mm normally. I prefer mine larger that 12.75mm but smaller than 13.0 mm.

12.5 is getting to the point I dont like on cue....wow, think about how nit picky the cue buying public is.

Ken

 

[ratcues]

Smaller diameter means two things:
1. less squirt (deflection) - because there's less "end mass"
2. greater precision in tip/ball placement - simply because you can see it better
Everything else is myth.
- It isn't easier to hit centerball with a larger tip.
- A smaller tip doesn't put more spin on the CB.
- A smaller tip isn't more sensitive to stroke errors.
- etc.
- etc.

pj
chgo

I agree with this. Two shafts, all identical except for tip diameter should play the same. The smaller will have LD only because it has less mass.

I have also found the larger tip is more forgiving. Think of it as the sweet spot on a golf club. The smaller tip is not more accurate.

Smaller diameter may give the perception of more spin but I believe that has to do with less mass, throughout the length of the shaft, not the actually diameter of the tip itself.

Hope this helps.

 

[Rod]

I think a fair statment is -- You may experience greater precision tip/ball placement because you can see it better; you may experience the same effect with a larger tip.

Some like smaller shafts, some like larger shafts. You can't tell someone which is better or easier because we all perceive things different.

I like larger diameter shafts at least 13mm. My reason is it feels comfortable and a more stable bridge. Thats it, I have no perceived notion that because of diameter it is more accurate other than if its more stable then it probably is.

Rod