Shane Van Boening draw stroke: wrist movement analyzed frame-by-frame

DeadStick

DeadStick

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In the runaway "Wrists" thread, CJ linked to an awesome video showing SVB warming up for his TAR match with Earl:


Shane's draw stroke at 00:57 was set up just right to capture high-res stills of his entire stroke, and to see clearly what's going on with his wrist. I put together 7 stills with descriptions, below.

Like CJ, Shane has a "cocked hammer" wrist at address, but what happens from the pause at the end of the backswing to contact is very unlike the downward swing of a hammer. You can clearly see Shane lets his wrist relax at the start of the forward stroke, then his wrist bends backwards towards his pinky finger as his forearm starts forward, then he snaps his wrist forward towards his thumb until contact. If we're comparing it to a hammer stroke, it's most like a reverse hammer stroke, like you'd do if you were pounding a nail into the underside of a table top.

eWnps.jpg
 
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+1 +1 +1

Thanks for posting. Yup, hammering a nail into the bottom of the table.

Now I have to change my workout routine with the hammer. :frown:

Come to think about it, if you are "pinning" the wrist cant go down, it has to come up.

John
 
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Hey that guy stole my video!

Oh well, maybe you guys in the US can now see it.
 
DeadStick said:
In the runaway "Wrists" thread, CJ linked to an awesome video showing SVB warming up for his TAR match with Earl: http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=U...feature=player_detailpage&v=aC2R84S0kiw#t=57s

Shane's draw stroke at 00:57 was set up just right to capture high-res stills of his entire stroke, and to see clearly what's going on with his wrist. I put together 7 stills with descriptions, below.

Like CJ, Shane has a "cocked hammer" wrist at address, but what happens from the pause at the end of the backswing to contact is very unlike the downward swing of a hammer. You can clearly see Shane let his wrist relax at the start of the forward stroke, bend backwards towards his pinky finger as his forearm starts forward, then snap his wrist forward towards his thumb. If we're comparing it to a hammer stroke, it's most like a reverse hammer stroke, like you'd do if you were pounding a nail into the underside of a table top.

[...images_snipped...][/IMG]
Click to expand...

DeadStick:

Thanks for taking the time to freezeframe, document/annotate, and post this. In the beginning of that trainwreck "wrists" thread, I debated a bit with CJ about the propriety of his "hammer stroke" analogies, compared to the wrist action in a pool stroke. I've always maintained his "hammer" motion analogies are completely inapplicable to a pool stroke, because the power motion of the wrist is going in the completely OPPOSITE direction. Yes, the counter-analogy of hammering a nail into the underside of a table top using an upwards wrist flick was used in those early debates!

EDIT: my [respectful] debates with CJ actually occurred in PJ's "What's Good about a Good Stroke?" thread:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=3834657#post3834657

I just don't think the "cock/uncock" action that CJ describes adequately describes most high-level pool strokes at all. Or, at least the analogy is hiding something else that is occurring, that CJ isn't adequately describing.

Again, thanks for posting this. I do hope that your thread doesn't get trainwrecked by the same offenders in the process -- I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!

-Sean
 
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One Pocket John said:
+1 +1 +1

Thanks for posting. Yup, hammering a nail into the bottom of the table.

Now I have to change my workout routine with the hammer. :frown:

Come to think about it, if you are "pinning" the wrist cant go down, it has to come up.

John
Click to expand...

Makes sense, two hours earlier in the CJ Wrist Thread, you posted how you had tried it the other way ... it works! Dude, you're incredibly lucky, you've figured out how to make it work two totally different ways! LMAO I'm sure as soon as CJ proclaims another "advanced technique", you'll be all over it and proclaiming the greatness of it all.

I took it to my table for about an hour........it works.
Click to expand...
 
nobcitypool said:
Makes sense, two hours earlier in the CJ Wrist Thread, you posted how you had tried it the other way ... it works! Dude, you're incredibly lucky, you've figured out how to make it work two totally different ways! LMAO I'm sure as soon as CJ proclaims another "advanced technique", you'll be all over it and proclaiming the greatness of it all.
Click to expand...

Yup, thats true. I have tried it both ways and they both work for me. And I like both and will use both styles.

I'm in this to learn as much as I can whether it be the good, the bad or the ugly. You have to have options.

Good catch :smile:

John
 
Big difference between Shane's stroke and CJ's. CJ chokes more forward on the cue with his right hand and his right hand is more cocked in the hammer up position. I couldn't see the videos I watched well enough to analyze what happens on the forward end of his stroke.

A frame by frame like above except using a good video of CJ's stroke would be interesting.
 
Shane cocks his wrist forward at address and if you are standing behind him you can really see him open up his hand and wrist on the final back swing.Another thing he has is the inward elbow chicken wing.I think he creates additional range of motion and power at the wrist,or in his case efficiency with his stroke.Other than their smaller stature this may help explain some of the success Filipinos have with the chicken wing.

More moving parts for sure and definitely not the traditional way its taught in the US but if the timing is right it certainly works.

Just my observation.
 
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The one unique element in my stroke it I pre cock my wrist up, so it MUST go down

Underclocked said:
Big difference between Shane's stroke and CJ's. CJ chokes more forward on the cue with his right hand and his right hand is more cocked in the hammer up position. I couldn't see the videos I watched well enough to analyze what happens on the forward end of his stroke.

A frame by frame like above except using a good video of CJ's stroke would be interesting.
Click to expand...

Yes, I pre cock my wrist like you see Shane do, but I'm not clear to the back of the cue. I hold it in the center of the wrap, so that makes my stroke more compact.

What's really interesting is when I look at my own stroke from certain angles it "looks" like I'm releasing my wrist differently than I really am. I said from the beginning it was next to impossible to see with the naked eye and even on camera it has an "optical illusion". The unique element in my stroke is I pre cock my wrist up, so it MUST go down when it releases. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
i have a different interpretation of the pics you presented
 
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first thank you for your time in dissecting the video and your analysis and starting this thread
premise #1 shane (and cj) have an unique grip at address thats not conventional but it doesnt matter!!!!!!
premise #2
shanes stroke is more conventional than not!!!!!!!!
loose wrist more than wrist "snap"
at pause his wrist is still alittle "ccocked" radial deviated
as he comes forward the momentom of the forearm causes the loose wrist to "lag" some causing to go to a more neutral position

picture a whip you holding the grip(forearm) and the rope is dangling(wrist)
if you pull the grip forward the rope will be behind it
this is an exageration because the wrist is not completely passive

the wrist positioon doesnt change alot from the start of forward to contact
after contact at finish you get radial deviation as most pool players do

if there really was a snap i would expect more movement in the wrist prior to contact and contact since the wrist would be accelerating faster than the forearm. also i would expect the momentum of the snap to cause a more cocked wrist finish closer to his starting position

if the motion was really hammering a nail under the table i would expect more wrist ulnar deviated not radial deviated at pause
if you were hammering a nail upside down your wrist would be cocked more fully towards your pinky to begin and would end cocked towards your thumb
the range of motion of shanes wrist sugests to me a light tap of a hammer at best

so in summary
i think shane (and cj) have a unique starting position
but the stroke from pause to contact is more in common with most pool strokes than not
i could be wrong :embarrassed2:....but i hope my post generates some comments:)
 
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As a side note, in the pics it looks to me as though he's leaving a remarkably great distance between his bridging hand and the cue ball.

I find this curious, as from a geometrical point of view any angular error at the butt end is going to be translated into a bigger and bigger error at the tip, the further away from the cue ball one places one's bridge.

Now I suppose he's doing this either because:

A - He is so damn good that he knows there simply won't be any error whatsoever at the butt end and so the distance from bridge to tip is irrelevant, or...

B - It's a very easy shot he is facing (from an aiming point of view), and so all his concentration is on draw, thus the length distance from the bridge to the cue ball is good because it offers a very shallow angle to the cue ball (minimising the chances of hooking the ball) or...

C - Somewhere in between A & B.
 
i re read your first post and i think deadstick we are more in agreement than dis agree
 
DeadStick said:
In the runaway "Wrists" thread, CJ linked to an awesome video showing SVB warming up for his TAR match with Earl: http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=U...feature=player_detailpage&v=aC2R84S0kiw#t=57s

Shane's draw stroke at 00:57 was set up just right to capture high-res stills of his entire stroke, and to see clearly what's going on with his wrist. I put together 7 stills with descriptions, below.

Like CJ, Shane has a "cocked hammer" wrist at address, but what happens from the pause at the end of the backswing to contact is very unlike the downward swing of a hammer. You can clearly see Shane lets his wrist relax at the start of the forward stroke, then his wrist bends backwards towards his pinky finger as his forearm starts forward, then he snaps his wrist forward towards his thumb until contact. If we're comparing it to a hammer stroke, it's most like a reverse hammer stroke, like you'd do if you were pounding a nail into the underside of a table top.

QUOTE]

Thanks for posting, the short follow through is due to new cloth and CB is not really far from OB, had this been table length (power draw) i would expect to see longer follow through.


In my opinion, loose wrist function is to ensure cue butt is dangling at 90 degrees just as if you are holding cue with rubber band. This ensure that cue travels in straight line. Where as solid wrist could at times due to the pressure of moment cocked toward the body and that could offset butt inward. I really do not think it provides much of additional power, but because it is loose wrist it ensure your cue delivery is efficient by actually using the weight of the cue rather than the muscle power.
Click to expand...
 
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CJ:
...when I look at my own stroke from certain angles it "looks" like I'm releasing my wrist differently than I really am.
...even on camera it has an "optical illusion".
Click to expand...
Or maybe your "real eyes" realize the "real lies" are in your mind.

pj
chgo
 
Why just analyze flat footed strokes? Take a look at Keith McCready's fall way stroke.
 
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