Shark Out of Water

mr3cushion

mr3cushion

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I knew the 'Doggie' for over 30 years, He was Chicago's Pool scene ' Sad Sack'!

A Great player from the New England area, born with one slight flaw, Addicted to Heroin!

I always felt bad for Doggie, helped him out more times than I could count!

He was essentially a decent/honorable Guy.

Here's an article from 2001 in the Reader newspaper in Chicago.

https://chicagoreader.com/news/shark-out-of-water/​

 
I saw the Dog regularly at Chris’s until his passing in 2006. Good guy with a sad history. Here’s what Freddy said in the AzB thread about it (RIP to both of ‘em):
freddy the beard said:
The Doggie

Goodby to the Doggie. A genuine old-school scuff. I first met the Waterdog in Calif. He was hanging at Vern Petersons Palace and living with the Richard "Popcorn" Miller crew that included "Geese," "Buttermilk," Keith McReady, and I forgot who else. The Dog always had it rough, his mother was a heroin junkie and he was born addicted. He stayed addicted for the rest of his life. He was not a bad kid, and he shot pretty straight.

the Beard
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pj
chgo
 
I just don't know- I read the stories, so many tragic lives associated with this game. Do these real life stories add up to elevating the mystique of the game - or is a story like this exactly the reason pocket billiards- which was once front page sports news in every major newspaper- has only managed to live on the fringes of sports interest for most of the past 90 years---- perhaps both in some way or another- not one to judge.

Every great mansion in America, at one time, boasted a dedicated billiards room. Every country club near the turn of the 19th century into the roaring 20s boasted a dedicated billiards area. Major American corporations advertised products in major magazines using billiards imagery and current billiards stars. Yet golf survived, overtook, then obliterated billiards as the great American pastime for any well to do American.

Seems odd- you can play pool year round anywhere in the world, Golf is unavailable to all those living through almost 5 months in the well heeled Northeast communities. - unless you leave for warmer climates for extended periods ( not available to most working people). Golf just kept growing and pool just kept dying, save for 2 movie time appearances.

Golf never really glorified the gambling end of the game- a few stories here and there, but they were smart enough to not marginalize the moneyed market target attraction of the game for the sake of sanctifying their own lost souls - maybe pool should have been smarter too- I don't know - I just look at the state of rooms here today and to me, THAT is much sadder than the plight of any one player.
 
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mikemosconi said:
I just don't know- I read the stories, so many tragic lives associated with this game. Do these real life stories add up to elevating the mystique of the game - or is a story like this exactly the reason pocket billiards- which was once front page sports news in every major newspaper- has only managed to live on the fringes of sports interest for most of the past 90 years---- perhaps both in some way or another- not one to judge.

Every great mansion in America, at one time, boasted a dedicated billiards room. Every country club near the turn of the 19th century into the roaring 20s boasted a dedicated billiards area. Major American corporations advertised products in major magazines using billiards imagery and current billiards stars. Yet golf survived, overtook, then obliterated billiards as the great American pastime for any well to do American.

Seems odd- you can play pool year round anywhere in the world, Golf is unavailable to all those living through almost 5 months in the well heeled Northeast communities. - unless you leave for warmer climates for extended periods ( not available to most working people). Golf just kept growing and pool just kept dying, save for 2 movie time appearances.

Golf never really glorified the gambling end of the game- a few stories here and there, but they were smart enough to not marginalize the game for the sake of sanctifying their own lost souls - maybe pool should have been smarter too- I don't know - I just look at the state of rooms here today and to me, THAT is much sadder than the plight of any one player.
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Just as much if not more action on golf. Difference is most was done by fairly affluent-to-rich people at country clubs. Pool rarely IF EVER has been played in places comparable to a nice country club. Maybe WAY back but not in my lifetime. Pool, at least in the US, is still somewhat stigmatized by the 'seedy poolhall' images.
 
Pool was played in every country club in America - my point is that no one group, like golf , took charge way back then - to keep
The game of billiards elevated with the moneyed crowd. So pool was dying as golf was flourishing. So pool hung onto these sad sack gambling , junkie, alcoholic images until
It became the image of the game itself. Now look at what we have left in the states.
 
mr3cushion said:
I knew the 'Doggie' for over 30 years, He was Chicago's Pool scene ' Sad Sack'!

A Great player from the New England area, born with one slight flaw, Addicted to Heroin!

I always felt bad for Doggie, helped him out more times than I could count!

He was essentially a decent/honorable Guy.

Here's an article from 2001 in the Reader newspaper in Chicago.

https://chicagoreader.com/news/shark-out-of-water/​

Click to expand...
The Reader was a good rag back in the day. Used to pick that thick stack up every week as soon as it was dropped off in Hyde Park and start planning what to hit on the "northside" that weekend.
 
mikemosconi said:
Pool was played in every country club in America - my point is that no one group, like golf , took charge way back then - to keep
The game of billiards elevated with the moneyed crowd. So pool was dying as golf was flourishing. So pool hung onto these sad sack gambling , junkie, alcoholic images until
It became the image of the game itself. Now look at what we have left in the states.
Click to expand...
That was EONS ago. WW2 changed pool forever with gillions of GI's coming home. The 'poolhall culture' of guys hanging out engaging in gambling,etc replaced the pre-war attitude toward billiards. Pool has never been considered a rich guys game, golf always has been. In other words pool didn't have far to fall when it fell.
 
Great but sad read. Read this one before and also about Waterdog in Playing off the Rail. Since some of you guys saw him play, can I ask what his game looked like? Never heard anyone really describe it other than the article saying he had a good cue ball. Would love to hear more about his game, like his stance, tempo, did he play a lot of spin, etc. Don't want to minimize the downsides of his life but seems like he played good enough to remember what he was like as a player.
 
mikemosconi said:
I just don't know- I read the stories, so many tragic lives associated with this game. Do these real life stories add up to elevating the mystique of the game - or is a story like this exactly the reason pocket billiards- which was once front page sports news in every major newspaper- has only managed to live on the fringes of sports interest for most of the past 90 years---- perhaps both in some way or another- not one to judge.

Every great mansion in America, at one time, boasted a dedicated billiards room. Every country club near the turn of the 19th century into the roaring 20s boasted a dedicated billiards area. Major American corporations advertised products in major magazines using billiards imagery and current billiards stars. Yet golf survived, overtook, then obliterated billiards as the great American pastime for any well to do American.

Seems odd- you can play pool year round anywhere in the world, Golf is unavailable to all those living through almost 5 months in the well heeled Northeast communities. - unless you leave for warmer climates for extended periods ( not available to most working people). Golf just kept growing and pool just kept dying, save for 2 movie time appearances.

Golf never really glorified the gambling end of the game- a few stories here and there, but they were smart enough to not marginalize the moneyed market target attraction of the game for the sake of sanctifying their own lost souls - maybe pool should have been smarter too- I don't know - I just look at the state of rooms here today and to me, THAT is much sadder than the plight of any one player.
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Television and cheap entertainment are hard to compete with. TV replaced pool tables as entertainment. Cheap entertainment that we have today is why pool is in the state it is in. Remember when almost all homes had a piano? TV and having easy access to records/tapes/cd/digital recordings did that. Who wants a half ton music machine you have to do yourself when you can put a tape/record in/on a small device on a shelf?

Pool tables are heavy and large. A small computer/cell phone/smart tv/game console provides a lot of entertainment in a smaller space. I don't feel like being a samurai today, I'll open another game and manage my asteroid colony, tomorrow I may captain a pirate ship and later the same day I might fight to survive in a zombie outbreak. Heck, I might even fire up a virtual pool game without ever leaving my chair.
 
MTfish said:
Great but sad read. Read this one before and also about Waterdog in Playing off the Rail. Since some of you guys saw him play, can I ask what his game looked like? Never heard anyone really describe it other than the article saying he had a good cue ball. Would love to hear more about his game, like his stance, tempo, did he play a lot of spin, etc. Don't want to minimize the downsides of his life but seems like he played good enough to remember what he was like as a player.
Click to expand...
Classic New England 'Straight Pool style' stroke! Short effective, nothing fancy for the 70's cue games.

Not down low on the cue like the present-day players, a between 3C height/Pool level over the cue.

His 9-ball break wasn't Big, but could definitely get out if He made one.
 
mikemosconi said:
Pool was played in every country club in America - my point is that no one group, like golf , took charge way back then - to keep
The game of billiards elevated with the moneyed crowd. So pool was dying as golf was flourishing. So pool hung onto these sad sack gambling , junkie, alcoholic images until
It became the image of the game itself. Now look at what we have left in the states.
Click to expand...
Interesting point. As I understand the BCA or whatever it was called then, it was all industry and mostly Brunswick. USGA started by wealthy clubs and focused on amateur game. Take a private club with billiards, say the New York Athletic Club. A club like that wasn’t involved with governing the game, were they? For all of its faults, the USGA was effective because it wasn’t started or managed by public courses or equipment companies. The pros were looked down upon and then had their own group, the PGA. At the US Open, Bobby Jones was Mr. Jones, but the pros were Gene Sarazen, Walter Hagen, etc…. At least that is my understanding. Snobby? Yes. But the game itself was protected and the pro game could grow and flourish in its own sphere. And there was, until recent times, a clear line separating pro from amateur. Even if the reality was a little different from the portrayal of it.

I think there is more to it, culturally, demographically, etc…. But the point about organization had to have something to do with it.
 
JPB2 said:
... Take a private club with billiards, say the New York Athletic Club. A club like that wasn’t involved with governing the game, were they? ...
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A group of athletic clubs held their own national championships, maybe into the 1970s. They seem to have been entirely disconnected from the rest of the world.

I remember when the NY Times printed the year end summary of "The Year in Sports" about 1970. They covered the 3-cushion championship that the NYAC was in, but they forgot to mention that Raymond Ceulemans had won his tenth (or so) consecutive world championship.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
A group of athletic clubs held their own national championships, maybe into the 1970s. They seem to have been entirely disconnected from the rest of the world.
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Makes sense. The USGA wasn’t disconnected. Even though the thing was started at places like Newport and Shinnecock, it grew substantially. Oh, and the USGA site says handicapping got started in the fall of 1911 when a member of the Executive Committee brought his ideas and system ( which he had been testing) to the committee. Just a mention for the FargoRate arguments. Would US cue sports be different if a governing body had established a balkline, 3 cushion, and straight pool handicapping system by 1930?
 
mr3cushion said:
Classic New England 'Straight Pool style' stroke! Short effective, nothing fancy for the 70's cue games.

Not down low on the cue like the present-day players, a between 3C height/Pool level over the cue.

His 9-ball break wasn't Big, but could definitely get out if He made one.
Click to expand...
Thank you. That was exactly the kind of description I was asking for.
 
mikemosconi said:
I just don't know- I read the stories, so many tragic lives associated with this game. Do these real life stories add up to elevating the mystique of the game - or is a story like this exactly the reason pocket billiards- which was once front page sports news in every major newspaper- has only managed to live on the fringes of sports interest for most of the past 90 years---- perhaps both in some way or another- not one to judge.

Every great mansion in America, at one time, boasted a dedicated billiards room. Every country club near the turn of the 19th century into the roaring 20s boasted a dedicated billiards area. Major American corporations advertised products in major magazines using billiards imagery and current billiards stars. Yet golf survived, overtook, then obliterated billiards as the great American pastime for any well to do American.

Seems odd- you can play pool year round anywhere in the world, Golf is unavailable to all those living through almost 5 months in the well heeled Northeast communities. - unless you leave for warmer climates for extended periods ( not available to most working people). Golf just kept growing and pool just kept dying, save for 2 movie time appearances.

Golf never really glorified the gambling end of the game- a few stories here and there, but they were smart enough to not marginalize the moneyed market target attraction of the game for the sake of sanctifying their own lost souls - maybe pool should have been smarter too- I don't know - I just look at the state of rooms here today and to me, THAT is much sadder than the plight of any one player.
Click to expand...
We shot ourselves in the foot.
 
garczar said:
That was EONS ago. WW2 changed pool forever with gillions of GI's coming home. The 'poolhall culture' of guys hanging out engaging in gambling,etc replaced the pre-war attitude toward billiards. Pool has never been considered a rich guys game, golf always has been. In other words pool didn't have far to fall when it fell.
Click to expand...
Most of the players I know wouldn't walk a mile or two if you paid em good money. Just sayin...
 
JPB2 said:
Interesting point. As I understand the BCA or whatever it was called then, it was all industry and mostly Brunswick. USGA started by wealthy clubs and focused on amateur game. Take a private club with billiards, say the New York Athletic Club. A club like that wasn’t involved with governing the game, were they? For all of its faults, the USGA was effective because it wasn’t started or managed by public courses or equipment companies. The pros were looked down upon and then had their own group, the PGA. At the US Open, Bobby Jones was Mr. Jones, but the pros were Gene Sarazen, Walter Hagen, etc…. At least that is my understanding. Snobby? Yes. But the game itself was protected and the pro game could grow and flourish in its own sphere. And there was, until recent times, a clear line separating pro from amateur. Even if the reality was a little different from the portrayal of it.

I think there is more to it, culturally, demographically, etc…. But the point about organization had to have something to do with it.
Click to expand...
How many times have you players heard somebody say "if you played Golf as well as you play pool"...
 
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