Shaw's Aiming

Imagine that. They just visualize the shot.
Heaven forbid if some peeps claim they went to see an aiming guru here when they came over.
Wait, some people did.
 
Neil said:
Except no one has actually made that claim.
Click to expand...

Really?
Got into fights with the pivoters here when they started claiming it.
They even claimed Parica went to see the guru too.
And to this day, someone still argues Bustamante uses a pivoting system.
 
Neil said:
Yes, they are using systems. Anyone that can do anything repeatedly is using a system. They may not have a name for it other than "feel", and they may not be able to list all the steps to their system, but it is there, nonetheless.

Far too many on here take the word "system" as a derogatory word, when it is anything but that. You don't like using the structure of a defined aiming system, but would rather play by feel. And, in the process of eliminating actual defined structure from your game, you also erroneously eliminated a word associated with it.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying the word "system" is bad. Far from it. It's just semantics to me.

My response was to GoldenFlash's comments, which I'll address (and hope addresses some of my thoughts on your comments as well):

GoldenFlash said:
You can have all the feel and all the instinct in the world, but if you hit the ball in the wrong place it isn't going into the pocket.
An aiming "system" eliminates guesswork on where to hit the ball....but you still have to hit that spot. That's where the feel and instinct come into play.
Those Phillipino fellas are taught very early exactly WHERE to aim. Then they develop their mechanics to hit those spots over and over.
Becoming a champion requires, as most say, hours and hours of rehearsal. But, rehearsing the CORRECT things.
Click to expand...

First off, you can hit the cue ball in many different places (in fact, an infinite amount of places within the confines of the striking "diameter" of the cue ball), and still pocket the object ball. Also, depending on where the object ball is, you have some freedom on where to strike it and still have it go in the intended pocket.

An aiming system only eliminates guesswork if you use the same cue, on the same cloth, hitting the same balls, under the same climate conditions. The feel and instinct are not in hitting the spot (that's why you have an aiming system) but in the micro-adjustments you make after pocketing a few balls on any given table on that particular day and conditions, which everybody does, regardless of whether they know it or not. We don't carry around a thermometer, hygrometer, moisture meter... We hit a rack or two and see how the balls react, and adjust accordingly. Not through some formula, but through application of the knowledge we've attained by pocketing millions of balls.

The correct spelling is "Filipino," and I'm of Filipino descent, but we're not just "fellas." You make it sound like there's a "grand master" of pool in the Philippines or formal schooling with secret books. I think when you come from a place where the unemployment is over 40%, and millions live literally dirt-poor, you want it more because it's your "out." And I think explains the humility of their stars. [I'm an American of Filipino descent.]

As to rehearsal of correct things - would you teach Efren's or Francisco's practice strokes? At the same time, don't you think it would affect them negatively if they were taught the modern accepted methods?
 
JoeyInCali said:
Really?
Got into fights with the pivoters here when they started claiming it.
They even claimed Parica went to see the guru too.
And to this day, someone still argues Bustamante uses a pivoting system.
Click to expand...

Different claims are being mentioned by you and you are trying to make them the same claim. Stating that they went to an aiming guru and stating that they use a pivoting system are two different claims.

I do admit that numerous times people have stated that they use some type of pivoting system, whether they realize it or not. Ron Vitello studied them for years to figure out what they were doing with their aiming, and came up with 90/90 from studying them. That doesn't mean they were using 90/90 though.

Efren himself has stated that he uses the edges and the center of the ball for aiming. That is a form of CTE. It's not CTE Pro/One, but something from the same "foundation".

I really don't see where anyone would have a problem with that.??
 
louieatienza said:
I'm not saying the word "system" is bad. Far from it. It's just semantics to me.
My response was to GoldenFlash's comments, which I'll address (and hope addresses some of my thoughts on your comments as well):
First off, you can hit the cue ball in many different places (in fact, an infinite amount of places within the confines of the striking "diameter" of the cue ball), and still pocket the object ball. Also, depending on where the object ball is, you have some freedom on where to strike it and still have it go in the intended pocket.
An aiming system only eliminates guesswork if you use the same cue, on the same cloth, hitting the same balls, under the same climate conditions. The feel and instinct are not in hitting the spot (that's why you have an aiming system) but in the micro-adjustments you make after pocketing a few balls on any given table on that particular day and conditions, which everybody does, regardless of whether they know it or not. We don't carry around a thermometer, hygrometer, moisture meter... We hit a rack or two and see how the balls react, and adjust accordingly. Not through some formula, but through application of the knowledge we've attained by pocketing millions of balls.
The correct spelling is "Filipino," and I'm of Filipino descent, but we're not just "fellas." You make it sound like there's a "grand master" of pool in the Philippines or formal schooling with secret books. I think when you come from a place where the unemployment is over 40%, and millions live literally dirt-poor, you want it more because it's your "out." And I think explains the humility of their stars. [I'm an American of Filipino descent.]
As to rehearsal of correct things - would you teach Efren's or Francisco's practice strokes? At the same time, don't you think it would affect them negatively if they were taught the modern accepted methods?
Click to expand...
You can take into consideration every variable you mention (in blue)...but you STILL have to hit the object ball in the right place. Otherwise you miss.
Filipinos (see, I spelled it correctly) are better at it for some reason.....and I do not believe it's because of any "out" of poverty. I remember when I was a kid and I was my city champion for the Duncan Yo-Yo tournaments. Duncan employed Filipinos as demonstrators and they were all light years ahead of the natural born American demonstrators...for whatever that's worth. The Filipinos copied each other.
I think they do a lot of the the same things in pool.
And yes....I think that if Efren or Bustamante were teachers, their students would become fantastic too by doing the same things.
Those Filipinos just have something extra...that's what I think
 
Neil said:
Different claims are being mentioned by you and you are trying to make them the same claim. Stating that they went to an aiming guru and stating that they use a pivoting system are two different claims.

I do admit that numerous times people have stated that they use some type of pivoting system, whether they realize it or not. Ron Vitello studied them for years to figure out what they were doing with their aiming, and came up with 90/90 from studying them. That doesn't mean they were using 90/90 though.

Efren himself has stated that he uses the edges and the center of the ball for aiming. That is a form of CTE. It's not CTE Pro/One, but something from the same "foundation".

I really don't see where anyone would have a problem with that.??
Click to expand...

I guess everyone uses CTE.
 
Neil said:
Just remember that no one but you has said that. ;)
Click to expand...

No kidding?
If someone looks at the center or edge of the balls, it's CTE.
If it's a straight in shot, I look at center of the cb to the center of the OB.
If it's a thin cut, edge of cb and edge of ob.
Presto, CTE!
 
Shaw shoots like he owned the game

I still am not certain what that guy Shaw is doing, but he's drilling those balls in on that 5x10 monster at Derby Center like it was a bar table.
I cannot convince myself that his fantastic play is a result of just talent and hitting a million balls.
Comments, por favor?
 
GoldenFlash said:
I still am not certain what that guy Shaw is doing, but he's drilling those balls in on that 5x10 monster at Derby Center like it was a bar table.
I cannot convince myself that his fantastic play is a result of just talent and hitting a million balls.
Comments, por favor?
Click to expand...

If you can deliver the cue in a perfectly straight line the balls go in. Aiming is the easy part.
 
Dan White said:
If you can deliver the cue in a perfectly straight line the balls go in. Aiming is the easy part.
Click to expand...
Aiming is not the easy part for a lot of players.
I'm rated in the top ten million and most of my constituency says the same thing. :smile:
By the way, I watched Shaw very carefully and his cue angles off center a little at the end of his stroke.
(I know you're going to do slow motion videos on it to prove me wrong. Get ready to be surprised)
 
GoldenFlash said:
Aiming is not the easy part for a lot of players.
I'm rated in the top ten million and most of my constituency says the same thing. :smile:
By the way, I watched Shaw very carefully and his cue angles off center a little at the end of his stroke.
(I know you're going to do slow motion videos on it to prove me wrong. Get ready to be surprised)
Click to expand...
https://youtu.be/BdvISrCnmFQ?t=32
Shoots with the opposite eye but shoots pretty frkn straight.
 
Last edited:
GoldenFlash said:
Thanks for the link.
Watching him shoot is pure joy.
So he is lining up without his dominant eye over the cue? I'm not sure I understand.
(the experts always told me to 'get that dominant eye over the stick')
Your comments?
Click to expand...

In Bold.

All depends on your personal retinal disparity.

If your dominant eye is really severe (Earl Strickland and Landon Shuffet come to mind), then yes the cue would end up under your right/left eye.

If your dominant eye is normal the the cue will end up somewhere between your dominant eye tear duct and bridge of your nose.

You can Google "retinal disparity" for more information.

It appears from the youtube video that Jason is right eye dominant.

John
 

Attachments

  • retinal disparity.jpg
    retinal disparity.jpg
    91 KB · Views: 744
Last edited:
I certainly don't look like that picture, but my right eye is very very dominant. It has become even more so now that I'm older.
I try to keep it directly over the cue stick.
 
GoldenFlash said:
I certainly don't look like that picture, but my right eye is very very dominant. It has become even more so now that I'm older.
I try to keep it directly over the cue stick.
Click to expand...

In bold.

You don't need to focus on keeping your dominant eye over the cue. Your cue will naturally fall under your dominant eye given your right eye is very dominant. :)

Your very dominant eye is going to place the cue where it sees that it must be.

John
 
Last edited:
GoldenFlash said:
You can take into consideration every variable you mention (in blue)...but you STILL have to hit the object ball in the right place. Otherwise you miss.
Filipinos (see, I spelled it correctly) are better at it for some reason.....and I do not believe it's because of any "out" of poverty. I remember when I was a kid and I was my city champion for the Duncan Yo-Yo tournaments. Duncan employed Filipinos as demonstrators and they were all light years ahead of the natural born American demonstrators...for whatever that's worth. The Filipinos copied each other.
I think they do a lot of the the same things in pool.
And yes....I think that if Efren or Bustamante were teachers, their students would become fantastic too by doing the same things.
Those Filipinos just have something extra...that's what I think
Click to expand...

I agree, but the right place one day is not the in the same place the next. So, who teaches THAT? I used to play a lot with another kid in college, and he'd swear he was stroking straight, when in fact he swerved the cue slightly to the side he has applying English to. Nobody taught him that, and he didn't even realize he was compensating intuitively.

Yes, before Pacquaio, Reyes, and a multitude of Miss Universes, we have a lot of Yo-Yo champions (my uncle is very proficient at it BTW.) I don't think it's unique to Filipinos, but to many Asian countries, where our parents really hammered into us to excel at whatever we do, followed by some crazy OCD. I watch a lot of Filipinos on YouTube, and they all have their unique stroke. I think everyone always looks for reasons, the "magic bullet" or "secret sauce" that elevates someone from the crowd. I just think it's more insane passion and desire, and less formula, that set these players apart.

I remember listening to one commentator observe the rather longer bridges the Filipino players make. I then see how all these low deflection shafts have become a rage. I wonder if they figured out that the longer shaft exposes more unsupported shaft, which allows it to deflect more when it strikes the cue ball, making the cue ball deflect less? I know when I need to make a long cut shot, long rail shot, where I must be accurate, I go to an open bridge and lengthen my bridge as well. I don't know why, and was never taught that, but I do it.
 
louieatienza said:
I agree, but the right place one day is not the in the same place the next. So, who teaches THAT? I used to play a lot with another kid in college, and he'd swear he was stroking straight, when in fact he swerved the cue slightly to the side he has applying English to. Nobody taught him that, and he didn't even realize he was compensating intuitively.

Yes, before Pacquaio, Reyes, and a multitude of Miss Universes, we have a lot of Yo-Yo champions (my uncle is very proficient at it BTW.) I don't think it's unique to Filipinos, but to many Asian countries, where our parents really hammered into us to excel at whatever we do, followed by some crazy OCD. I watch a lot of Filipinos on YouTube, and they all have their unique stroke. I think everyone always looks for reasons, the "magic bullet" or "secret sauce" that elevates someone from the crowd. I just think it's more insane passion and desire, and less formula, that set these players apart.

I remember listening to one commentator observe the rather longer bridges the Filipino players make. I then see how all these low deflection shafts have become a rage. I wonder if they figured out that the longer shaft exposes more unsupported shaft, which allows it to deflect more when it strikes the cue ball, making the cue ball deflect less? I know when I need to make a long cut shot, long rail shot, where I must be accurate, I go to an open bridge and lengthen my bridge as well. I don't know why, and was never taught that, but I do it.
Click to expand...
Or they figured out the carabao english a long time ago.
Before the terms backhand english and pivot point came about, Efren and company were already "walking" the bridge hand to get to the stroking line with spin.
Then you have Jose Parica who avoids spin as much as he can . He has told us himself, Efren and Busti spin the ball too much. And he's said somehow Efren has mastered the inside spin.
Efren has never played with a low deflection shaft ( interestingly enough ). His best days were on cue ball ferrule that made a nasty sound. But, this was during his 12MM tip and 61" $20 cue.
Efren, Busti and Parica had natural talent from the get-go. By the time they got to their late teens, THEY WERE ALREADY world-beaters. Efren himself told me his best playing days were when he was 19 years old. And that in 1979 was his best 3-cushion and karambola days. He told me that when he was playing 3-cushion upstairs at the old Hollywood Billiards in '96. He played 3-c with his Meucci cue.:eek: AND won a race to 35 against a gentleman named Bruce who was playing with an elephant ear wrapped Gina cue , which I could never forget. Absolutely gorgeous cue.
Dennis Orcollo is a different one. He became great by a ton of work with little talent. Alex and Busti have said that themselves. They said Dennis got there via " tyaga" ( patience and hard work ). Dennis was a fisherman in his teens. Got in the game late by Pinoy standards.
Efren beat the number 8 player in the islands before he even reached 13.
He was already sleeping under the tables at the old Lucky 13 in Quiapo then.
Quit 2nd yr high school to become a full-time player . He said, he played for food. When he went back to Angeles and had fish with him, the family was happy.
 
One Pocket John said:
In bold.

You don't need to focus on keeping your dominant eye over the cue. Your cue will naturally fall under your dominant eye given your right eye is very dominant. :)

Your very dominant eye is going to place the cue where it sees that it must be.

John
Click to expand...

... which isn't necessarily the correct place to put the cue. Whoever told GoldenFlash to put the cue under his dominant eye like shooting a rifle, as they always say, was wrong, except maybe when teaching the basics to a new player.

Putting the cue under the dominant eye, or wherever you naturally sight the cue (usually somewhere between the two eyes) in no way assures that you will be able to stroke the cue in a straight line.

It took me most of my pool playing life to learn this not so simple fact, and I am sorry that the state of billiards instruction for the last 30 years has not addressed this issue. For me, sighting the cue/shot naturally introduced a bias that made the cue look straight when in fact it was slightly cocked. I had a master BCA instructor point this out to me in the late 90's (yet somehow he didn't understand the cause of the problem and how to fix it). My father told me the same thing 5 years ago, nearly 10 years later. In each case I would have sworn that both men were wrong. Eventually, I began to conclude that there could be something wrong with my eyesight, or brain (my wife agreed with that idea :wink:).

Luckily, I found that eye location is a funny thing, and what looks and feels wrong initially may actually be right, and eventually will feel right.

So my unsolicited recommendation is to find that head/body position that produces a straight stroke delivery. This is not easy to do without video feed back as the brain generally does not like change and is very good at fooling you into thinking everything is good and doesn't need hours and hours of hard work to retool the cue stroking machine.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top