I watch the pros and can't help but notice that almost all of the best get very low over their cue when they're shooting. So, of course I try to emulate them as much as I can. Sometimes, because of lower back pain, I'll adjust my stance and shoot from a more raised position. When I do this, I immediately notice that my stroking arm feels much more comfortable and my stroke seems smoother. When you look at the older greats like Mosconi, Lassiter, Moore, etc. didn't they shoot from a more raised stance than the current group of pros? Does anyone think there might be something to this or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Shooting Stance, down over the cue or not?
- Thread starter Rickw
- Start date
Rickw said:
If there are physical limitations preventing low play, even if your stroke seems comfortable, perhaps it would be a good idea to work on your up higher stroke. Gotta be comfortable. And I agree that the greats had a more upright stance.
I am not sure of the advantages to getting low. Two for me, and I am probably about 4 inches above the cue: it seems to help me focus better, cutting out outside visual distractions, and when I am low, I do not move my head.
Laura
Many of the players of the 40s, 50s, and 60s (like the ones you mentioned) played a lot of straight pool. In straight pool, generally there aren't many very difficult shots, but there is a lot of pinpoint cueball control necessary to play around clusters of balls. A more upright stance lends itself to better awareness for tight cueball positioning (this is a reason that 3-cushion players play more upright as well). Today, most pros play 9-ball primarily, and 9-ball requires less accurate cueball control, but more difficult shot making. It's easier to aim with a lower stance.
I play mostly one pocket, and I find that my style varies from shot to shot. When I'm concerned more about cueball positioning off an easy shot or for a safety, I'm generally more upright. When I'm shooting a tough shot, I generally get down quite low.
I play mostly one pocket, and I find that my style varies from shot to shot. When I'm concerned more about cueball positioning off an easy shot or for a safety, I'm generally more upright. When I'm shooting a tough shot, I generally get down quite low.
Id have to agree with BackPocket when it comes to different shots requiring different positions. I have heard many times that you should always maintain a consistant stance and position but I cannot do that on every shot. I raise my body to shoot over balls and if the shot requires more position play then shot making ability. That being said it comes down to comfort. It took me along time to get use to playing down on the cue but now its second nature. Your going to have find out what works for you and try to shoot every or as many shots from the exact same position this will increase your game dramatically.
dday
dday
Purdman
Banned
Stance
A good stance is balanced and comfortable with little or no movement. Eyes should be positioned vertically over the line of stroke, such that what is perceived is accurate.
As long as you are comfortable, balanced, and can sight along the line of the cue accurately , then you've got a good stance. Differant people have differant bone structures, muscle tone, habits, etc., there is no style of play that will be perfect for everyone.
This is out of my instruction workbook. I am a Cue Tech alumni.
Don P.
A good stance is balanced and comfortable with little or no movement. Eyes should be positioned vertically over the line of stroke, such that what is perceived is accurate.
As long as you are comfortable, balanced, and can sight along the line of the cue accurately , then you've got a good stance. Differant people have differant bone structures, muscle tone, habits, etc., there is no style of play that will be perfect for everyone.
This is out of my instruction workbook. I am a Cue Tech alumni.
Don P.
Science geek's response
I think the height of your stance should be predicated on getting your upper arm parallel to the floor. With your upper arm parallel to the floor, you can move only your forearm during the stroke. This not only minimizes the number of moving parts, but also maximizes the amount of stroke length and power you can achieve comfortably. This arm position also gives you the best chance for a fairly level stroke (requiring less adjustment in your hand during the stroke to achieve a fairly level stroke). I'm sure you can become expert with any stroke, but why not make it easier/quicker by using sound biomechanical principles?
I think the height of your stance should be predicated on getting your upper arm parallel to the floor. With your upper arm parallel to the floor, you can move only your forearm during the stroke. This not only minimizes the number of moving parts, but also maximizes the amount of stroke length and power you can achieve comfortably. This arm position also gives you the best chance for a fairly level stroke (requiring less adjustment in your hand during the stroke to achieve a fairly level stroke). I'm sure you can become expert with any stroke, but why not make it easier/quicker by using sound biomechanical principles?
whitewolf said:
We disagree again bambam.
IMO, position skills come with experience and pocketing ability providing a person can 'read the table' and think ahead several plays. Do not see this as talent perse. I have seen people who can pot balls but do not do shape well, but if the person can read the table, they typically become good in shape as they progress in their ability. And, yes, good shape requires great finess. This can be learned, th finess part. Just like some people are naturally better at safes, so are some naturally better at reading the table. IMO, this is more the way a person's brain is made than physical talent, that is, assuming potting ability.
I think that you are seeing shape rather one-dimensionally, ie inside rather than outside of the box, when there are many variables involved, some talent, some practice and some just the way someone's brain works. And I have seen many fine players approach shape in entirely different ways, yet each achieving excellent results, indicating credence to the idea that people are different in what is natural to them, the way their brain works and so forth.
Laura
Thanks everyone for the great responses! I just want to add that when you move your body up a little off the cue, try practicing your stroke as you do so and see if your stroking arm gets just a little more comfortable as you do it.
Again, thank you everyone!
Again, thank you everyone!
Williebetmore said:
Sorry to disagree, but your forearm is attached to a pivot; your elbow. So if it is the only part moving, then once it moves back or forth more than a few inches, it will begin to rise noticeably.
For flat cueing, the upper arm must move to compensate for the up and down (pendulum) movement of the cue arm.
But perfectly flat cueing is not necessary. To actually try to flat cue is extremely unnatural. Put a laser on your cue and you'll see what I mean.
It's worth considering that the most accurate potters in the world are snooker players, whose chin is nearly always on their cue, with back arm at a considerable angle.
Purdman
Banned
Stroke
Colin, when just moving the elbo, there is a sweet spot. About five to six inches of the stroke. Take an empty paper towel roll and slide it over the grip. Tighten up the bridge hand on the shaft. Move the paper towel holder , not the cue, and you will see that on the back swing and the forward stroke, the tip will go up and down. There is a point when the hand is right under the elbo that it stays perfectly straight for about five or six inches. Bingo, the sweet spot.
Don P.
Colin, when just moving the elbo, there is a sweet spot. About five to six inches of the stroke. Take an empty paper towel roll and slide it over the grip. Tighten up the bridge hand on the shaft. Move the paper towel holder , not the cue, and you will see that on the back swing and the forward stroke, the tip will go up and down. There is a point when the hand is right under the elbo that it stays perfectly straight for about five or six inches. Bingo, the sweet spot.
Don P.
Have you noticed that when the cueball is very near the object ball and you have to shoot it in an angle, your stance tend to be more upright, because you "see" the angle better ? I think it's just a matter of confidence and many players don't do it at all...
IMHO, when your chin is very near the cue, your shooting arm doesn't have so much freedom of movement and the stroke becomes more accurate but not necessarily fluent and relaxed. If you are little bit higher above the cue, you can use more your shooting arm and the stroke is a little bit more relaxed and you seem to be able to control the cueball more easier, but you might lose some of the pocketing accuracy.
IMHO, when your chin is very near the cue, your shooting arm doesn't have so much freedom of movement and the stroke becomes more accurate but not necessarily fluent and relaxed. If you are little bit higher above the cue, you can use more your shooting arm and the stroke is a little bit more relaxed and you seem to be able to control the cueball more easier, but you might lose some of the pocketing accuracy.
I am going to experiment more with using a bit more of a raised stance. Currently I am using a low stance, my chin is about 2" from the cue.
Don,
I like the empty paper towel roll trick. That's an excellent test and I've never heard it before. Does this mean that you shouldn't follow through too much? Should you stick to a 5 or 6 inch stroke?
Mjantti,
You're saying exactly what I was trying to say. You definitely notice a little more comfort in your stroking arm when you raise a little. I think there is a point where the comfort is there and you're still low enough to get a good aim.
I like the empty paper towel roll trick. That's an excellent test and I've never heard it before. Does this mean that you shouldn't follow through too much? Should you stick to a 5 or 6 inch stroke?
Mjantti,
You're saying exactly what I was trying to say. You definitely notice a little more comfort in your stroking arm when you raise a little. I think there is a point where the comfort is there and you're still low enough to get a good aim.
Rickw said:
Yes, agreed. For instance, it's not really easy to shoot a table length draw if you have your chin touching the cue, but it's easier if you're shooting at table length stun shot. I think there are slight variations in your technique and stance on different kind of shots. But somehow you cannot learn different techniques, you just automatically adjust your body on different shots based on the muscle memory you gained from the earlier succesfull shots. That's why it's important to shoot a lot of different kind of shots, also the difficult ones, because your muscle memory needs to make the adjustments for a successful shot and store it in your brain. I know this is NOT what many instructors say/teach, but this is my opinion.
I think in snooker you can do well with a exactly the same stance & stroke on all shots, but in pool you need more.
Purdman
Banned
Stroke
Rickw, the function of the stroke is to propel the cue in a straight line. In a good stroke, the cue stick is accelerating ( speeding up ) linearly (straight as an arrow ) at the time it passes thru the cue ball. Allowing the motion of the stroke to continue towards its goal. The" follow thru" is the result of a proper stroke, not the cause. You should also keep the cue as level as possible when you can. You also should have a finish position, Grip hand , on every shot. Consistantly!!!
Don P.
Rickw, the function of the stroke is to propel the cue in a straight line. In a good stroke, the cue stick is accelerating ( speeding up ) linearly (straight as an arrow ) at the time it passes thru the cue ball. Allowing the motion of the stroke to continue towards its goal. The" follow thru" is the result of a proper stroke, not the cause. You should also keep the cue as level as possible when you can. You also should have a finish position, Grip hand , on every shot. Consistantly!!!
Don P.
Don,
I agree with everything you said below except the part where you say the finish position should be "grip hand". Do you mean you should have a tight grip at the end of the follow through? I've heard that you should hit your chest at the end of a shot with your stroke hand for a draw shot. I never do that. I try to stroke as straight as possible and if I need more stroke, I drop my elbow and the stick is paused at the end of the stroke hopefully in a straight line through the shot.
I agree with everything you said below except the part where you say the finish position should be "grip hand". Do you mean you should have a tight grip at the end of the follow through? I've heard that you should hit your chest at the end of a shot with your stroke hand for a draw shot. I never do that. I try to stroke as straight as possible and if I need more stroke, I drop my elbow and the stick is paused at the end of the stroke hopefully in a straight line through the shot.
Donald A. Purdy said:Rickw, the function of the stroke is to propel the cue in a straight line. In a good stroke, the cue stick is accelerating ( speeding up ) linearly (straight as an arrow ) at the time it passes thru the cue ball. Allowing the motion of the stroke to continue towards its goal. The" follow thru" is the result of a proper stroke, not the cause. You should also keep the cue as level as possible when you can. You also should have a finish position, Grip hand , on every shot. Consistantly!!!
Don P.
Purdman
Banned
Finish position
Rick, the finish is the end result of your stroke. By moving the cue stick to the Finish position, the stroke is completed with " proper follow thru ". Your grip should be the same at the end of your stroke as the begining. I teach and words sometime get into the way. There is a place on my body that my grip hand touches at the end of my completed stroke. It goes there every time. Consistant!!!!
GRIP : In a good grip, the fingers and wrist should be relaxed and comfortable with a hindging motion that provides a pivot for the cue. The grip should remain consistant throughout the range of the stroke.
Agreed???
Don P.
Rick, the finish is the end result of your stroke. By moving the cue stick to the Finish position, the stroke is completed with " proper follow thru ". Your grip should be the same at the end of your stroke as the begining. I teach and words sometime get into the way. There is a place on my body that my grip hand touches at the end of my completed stroke. It goes there every time. Consistant!!!!
GRIP : In a good grip, the fingers and wrist should be relaxed and comfortable with a hindging motion that provides a pivot for the cue. The grip should remain consistant throughout the range of the stroke.
Agreed???
Don P.
Agreed! Hey, you the man, what can I say? 
Donald A. Purdy said:Rick, the finish is the end result of your stroke. By moving the cue stick to the Finish position, the stroke is completed with " proper follow thru ". Your grip should be the same at the end of your stroke as the begining. I teach and words sometime get into the way. There is a place on my body that my grip hand touches at the end of my completed stroke. It goes there every time. Consistant!!!!
GRIP : In a good grip, the fingers and wrist should be relaxed and comfortable with a hindging motion that provides a pivot for the cue. The grip should remain consistant throughout the range of the stroke.
Agreed???
Don P.
Purdman
Banned
Rickw said:Agreed! Hey, you the man, what can I say?
My pleasure Rick. I have a gal comming over this morning for lesons. I gotta tell her something!!!!!
She gonna pay me!!!! Buying a cue too. She likes the Predator P2 w/leather wrap. Got it sitting in the tube. Gonna suprise her with it. It is a lot of fun teaching someone who hasn't developed a lot of bad habits. They progress so much faster.
Don P.