Egg McDogit said:
Me too. It's a discussion of pool and how to play better pool. That's what I come on here for.
-Andrew
Short Draw Shots
- Thread starter DrCue'sProtege
- Start date
Me too. It's a discussion of pool and how to play better pool. That's what I come on here for.
-Andrew
Aaron_S said:This is one of those shots where you have to ask yourself if you're better off overdoing it or underdoing it. You can overdo the draw quite a bit and still have a decent shot, so I would put the emphasis on not underdoing it.
I happen to agree with your assessment. You'll still end up with a good, not just a decent shot. Having said that, in this case it's better to give yourself a target instead of a spot in the middle of the table. That target would be the side rail, draw it enough to contact the rail and come out a few inches.
I prefer to shorten my bridge and move my back hand forward accordingly since I’m close to the o/b. It improves accuracy and I almost always use max low english. Rather than 1/2 or 1 tip etc. Use max and vary your speed.
As a thought what usually happens on this kind of shot is too much stroke for the shot. You mind knows that and you decelerate at the last moment, a choke if you prefer, to keep from over drawing the c/b. In this case it wouldn’t have mattered.
Rod
Perhaps you want to play some cheap sets....steev said:
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1st, don't fight the shot. Once you have practiced this a while, it will seem pretty easy.
This is not a power shot. Pay attention to your grip. Grip your cue as if you are holding an empy styrofoam coffee cup and then follow through very smoothly. The cue ball will draw much more easily. Stay down, follow through.
2ndly, don't feel as though you should settle for so, so position on this ball. If you really want to learn this game and other games, practice these shots and practice pin point position play.
Little details like this are the very things which will help you improve quickly. Don't be afraid to go about things the right way.
This is not a power shot. Pay attention to your grip. Grip your cue as if you are holding an empy styrofoam coffee cup and then follow through very smoothly. The cue ball will draw much more easily. Stay down, follow through.
2ndly, don't feel as though you should settle for so, so position on this ball. If you really want to learn this game and other games, practice these shots and practice pin point position play.
Little details like this are the very things which will help you improve quickly. Don't be afraid to go about things the right way.
I had this happen to me once too many times!
That is attempting to draw the cue ball a specific distance and not being able do it, then losing a game because of this.
So I decided to do something about it! I didn't care how much it cost or how long it took to solve this problem.
One of the problems seemed to be with the tip on my cue. I was listening to the locals [bad] advice about tip care and that was to "tip tap" my tip. When I did this, I would get good draw for awhile, then as I used the tip, it would get worse and worse. So I was going from good draw to poor draw with my tip. My tip was not consistent.
So I decided to try out many different tips and see what worked best. I read all I could about the subject and tried different tips myself. I also tried different tip shapes and shaft sizes.
To make a long story short, I found that a dime shaped Moori Q (hard) tip would work best for draw shots *and* all other shots required in a game. And the bigger the better. Max size for a dime shape is 12.75 mm shaft size at tip. (Larger and curve goes down to ferrule.)
So Moori Q dime shaped tip and 12.75 mm shaft size at tip. This gets the best draw, keeps its tip shape the longest (hard tip) and was consistent with wear. (I later learned that a dime shape is recommended for my Predator shaft.)
Then I needed to keep the tip surface consistent. I was able to do this with a sandpaper shaper. I made my own dime shaped tip shaping tool. I purchased a section of 1/2 inch electrical PVC pipe and cut a piece about 8 inches long and then cut that in half. Then I cut a piece of 220 grit sandpaper about 1 inch wide and 8 inches long, then hold it in the inside curve of the half PVC. Then sand back and forth while slowly rotating my cue. Here is a picture of my PVC tip shapers (different sizes - dime, nickel, quarter) last picture at bottom...
http://www.geocities.com/billybobnospam/pr.html
I now lightly sand (resurface) my tip after about every 4 hours of play or before a tournament. So what I have now is a consistent tip shape (dime), a consistent tip (always Moori Q), and a consistent tip surface (lightly sand after every 4 hours of play). (I need a new tip about every 6 months, but so what? The money I win in tournaments more than pays for this small expense.)
So bingo! I am now always playing with a tip which is always in the *same* condition! BIG help on the road to shooting consistent draw shots - drawing back a specific distance that is.
Next I learned about chalking. Not chalking before each draw shot can cause trouble. It is *very* important to chalk well before each and every draw shot especially around the sides of the tip. (Before every other shot as well.) After chalking, hold your tip up to the light and be sure there are no dark spots around the side. If there are, apply more chalk or sand if needed. If the ball scoops (jumps), it is a "not enough chalk/slick tip" problem usually.
So now I always had the same tip and same amount of chalk applied. My tip would always work the same.
Next was myself. I practiced drawing the cue ball back different distances. I set up a line of balls between the center pockets and placed the cue ball one diamond back. I practice drawing the cue ball back one diamond, then two diamonds, then 3, etc.
And I have practiced doing this everyday for several years. And I will say that I am now pretty good at drawing the cue ball back just a little (6 inches) or more (2 diamonds), half a table, or all the way back. I can do this at will.
Note that I can go and grab a house cue with a cruddy tip on it - slick as can be. Well my "drawing skills" go out the window when I use such a cue. Sure I can draw the cue ball back. But I can't use extreme (very low on ball) draw because I will scoop the ball. So I have less of a range of up/down with my draw shots when using a cruddy tip. And no telling how far back I will be able to draw the ball back when using a cruddy tip. This is because the house cue tip is *different* from the tip I have learned to draw accurately with.
I can alter the drawing distance by how low I hit the ball (training ball 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.), how much I follow through, and speed of hit.
So how do I alter the amount of drawback I get these days? I don't really know what I am doing because it is "automatic". I just am able to do it. I think I use a combination of all three depending on how far the cue ball is away from the object ball.
Anyway if you always shoot with the same exact tip with the same surface condition and chalk, then you can practice drawing back the cue ball different distances daily for a few years and get to be quite good at drawing back a specific distance.
If you are playing with different brands/hardness tips, different tip shapes, tips with different surface conditions, and not applying chalk well to the sides before each shot, then I think it would be quite difficult to learn to draw back specific distances each time every time.
That is attempting to draw the cue ball a specific distance and not being able do it, then losing a game because of this.
So I decided to do something about it! I didn't care how much it cost or how long it took to solve this problem.
One of the problems seemed to be with the tip on my cue. I was listening to the locals [bad] advice about tip care and that was to "tip tap" my tip. When I did this, I would get good draw for awhile, then as I used the tip, it would get worse and worse. So I was going from good draw to poor draw with my tip. My tip was not consistent.
So I decided to try out many different tips and see what worked best. I read all I could about the subject and tried different tips myself. I also tried different tip shapes and shaft sizes.
To make a long story short, I found that a dime shaped Moori Q (hard) tip would work best for draw shots *and* all other shots required in a game. And the bigger the better. Max size for a dime shape is 12.75 mm shaft size at tip. (Larger and curve goes down to ferrule.)
So Moori Q dime shaped tip and 12.75 mm shaft size at tip. This gets the best draw, keeps its tip shape the longest (hard tip) and was consistent with wear. (I later learned that a dime shape is recommended for my Predator shaft.)
Then I needed to keep the tip surface consistent. I was able to do this with a sandpaper shaper. I made my own dime shaped tip shaping tool. I purchased a section of 1/2 inch electrical PVC pipe and cut a piece about 8 inches long and then cut that in half. Then I cut a piece of 220 grit sandpaper about 1 inch wide and 8 inches long, then hold it in the inside curve of the half PVC. Then sand back and forth while slowly rotating my cue. Here is a picture of my PVC tip shapers (different sizes - dime, nickel, quarter) last picture at bottom...
http://www.geocities.com/billybobnospam/pr.html
I now lightly sand (resurface) my tip after about every 4 hours of play or before a tournament. So what I have now is a consistent tip shape (dime), a consistent tip (always Moori Q), and a consistent tip surface (lightly sand after every 4 hours of play). (I need a new tip about every 6 months, but so what? The money I win in tournaments more than pays for this small expense.)
So bingo! I am now always playing with a tip which is always in the *same* condition! BIG help on the road to shooting consistent draw shots - drawing back a specific distance that is.
Next I learned about chalking. Not chalking before each draw shot can cause trouble. It is *very* important to chalk well before each and every draw shot especially around the sides of the tip. (Before every other shot as well.) After chalking, hold your tip up to the light and be sure there are no dark spots around the side. If there are, apply more chalk or sand if needed. If the ball scoops (jumps), it is a "not enough chalk/slick tip" problem usually.
So now I always had the same tip and same amount of chalk applied. My tip would always work the same.
Next was myself. I practiced drawing the cue ball back different distances. I set up a line of balls between the center pockets and placed the cue ball one diamond back. I practice drawing the cue ball back one diamond, then two diamonds, then 3, etc.
And I have practiced doing this everyday for several years. And I will say that I am now pretty good at drawing the cue ball back just a little (6 inches) or more (2 diamonds), half a table, or all the way back. I can do this at will.
Note that I can go and grab a house cue with a cruddy tip on it - slick as can be. Well my "drawing skills" go out the window when I use such a cue. Sure I can draw the cue ball back. But I can't use extreme (very low on ball) draw because I will scoop the ball. So I have less of a range of up/down with my draw shots when using a cruddy tip. And no telling how far back I will be able to draw the ball back when using a cruddy tip. This is because the house cue tip is *different* from the tip I have learned to draw accurately with.
I can alter the drawing distance by how low I hit the ball (training ball 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.), how much I follow through, and speed of hit.
So how do I alter the amount of drawback I get these days? I don't really know what I am doing because it is "automatic". I just am able to do it. I think I use a combination of all three depending on how far the cue ball is away from the object ball.
Anyway if you always shoot with the same exact tip with the same surface condition and chalk, then you can practice drawing back the cue ball different distances daily for a few years and get to be quite good at drawing back a specific distance.
If you are playing with different brands/hardness tips, different tip shapes, tips with different surface conditions, and not applying chalk well to the sides before each shot, then I think it would be quite difficult to learn to draw back specific distances each time every time.
Shaft diameter and tip radius
This is incorrect.
I have three 13 mm shafts with Moori III M tips installed and shaped to a dime radius. All have been shaped multiple times and have plenty of shoulder remaining to allow several more reshapings. The shoulders are currently between 3 mm and 4 mm in height.
If a Moori III is installed on a 14 mm shaft, the tip installer does not reduce the tip thickness at the center of the tip during installation or initial shaping, and the tip is shaped to a dime radius, the shoulder can be expected to be just over 3.5 mm after the initial shaping by the installer. This does assume all Moori III tips start at about 7mm in thickness prior to installation.
There's a nice mathematical formula for determining all these things if anyone is interested.
Billy_Bob said:
This is incorrect.
I have three 13 mm shafts with Moori III M tips installed and shaped to a dime radius. All have been shaped multiple times and have plenty of shoulder remaining to allow several more reshapings. The shoulders are currently between 3 mm and 4 mm in height.
If a Moori III is installed on a 14 mm shaft, the tip installer does not reduce the tip thickness at the center of the tip during installation or initial shaping, and the tip is shaped to a dime radius, the shoulder can be expected to be just over 3.5 mm after the initial shaping by the installer. This does assume all Moori III tips start at about 7mm in thickness prior to installation.
There's a nice mathematical formula for determining all these things if anyone is interested.
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Sure. Find a good practice drill. One that included speed control. There are somewhere around 20 different draw drills available for free on www.sfbilliards.com -- look in the free handout and the free on-line article archive. Also, see the free archive of articles on www.onthebreaknews.com which includes examples of how you can make drills to suit your problems.DrCue'sProtege said:
Start with Mosconi's semi-circle draw drill by the side pocket. If you don't know what that drill is, you need to start a modest library (or find it in the free drills mentioned above).
BTW, DCP, I notice that you are still not responding to input. Has anything that has been said in this thread been helpful to you?
DrCue'sProtege said:
Are you REALLY Dr. Cue's protege? You are giving the man a bad name. I say you just quit pool if you need to ask how to execute this shot. You've been on this board for YEARS, and you say that you play EVERY DAY at your own house.
AND YET YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO HIT THIS SHOT!?!? QUIT POOL! SET YOUR TABLE ON FIRE, AND TOSS YOUR CUES ON TOP OF IT. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, STOP WITH THESE STUPID QUESTIONS AND FIGURE IT OUT FOR YOURSELF!
Chris said:
Well let's put it this way... If you have a smaller shaft like 12.5 mm and a dime shaped tip, you will be able to reshape the tip many more times than you could with a 13 mm shaft. So the tip will last longer. Note I'm resurfacing (lightly sanding) my tip several times a week and my tips last about 6 months. If I was using a 13 mm shaft, I would need to replace my tips more often because the curve of the dime shape would get close to the ferrule sooner.
Hold a dime up to the edge of a 13 mm shaft tip and then do the same with a small shaft and you will see the difference - how the curve of the dime comes down closer to the ferrule on a larger shaft. And with tips which are thin (non-Moori), the curve would go down to the ferrule. Some tips are 1/2 the height or thickness of a Moori. (And I assume than not everyone uses a Moori tip.)
As to if the origional poster is reading/replying to the advice posted here, I don't think it matters. I think what is important is the topic and suggestions offered. I would guess that other people are interested in this subject and would be learning from the posts.
I know I do. Someone asks a question and many people post advice. I may never reply to the post, but I am reading everything and learning from it.
I know I do. Someone asks a question and many people post advice. I may never reply to the post, but I am reading everything and learning from it.
cuetechasaurus said:
Damn!!! Dude!!! have a heart!!! Sometimes the obvious reason or answer aren't really the case at all. I personally think that the main reason for these posts are simply illict a response on the board just to get an interesting read. Alot of the diagrams that come up seem simple to us, but what about to a begginer, rather than DCP coming on the site and doing posts saying I'm all this and that and you should shoot a shot this way or that maybe he's just trying everybody else to pipe in and offer different advice so that somebody might be able to learn from it. Years ago you couldn't learn a thing from anybody, no one would show you, or tell you nothin for fear that their giving away secrets.
So lighten up.
Black Cat
Billy_Bob said:
I agree that many learn from the responses to DCPs questions. However it would be better if he participated after initiating threads that are really supposed to help him improve. Feedback from DCP regarding how he is making out with the suggestions would allow posters to correct any misconceptions or futher explain issues as needed. Without more feedback it's hard to tell how he is taking the responses and how he is improving. So I'll do my part and say "please DCP ? ". jmo.
Dave
All,
thanks for all the various responses. while, yes, the shot seems simple enough, any shot can be missed and any shot can end up with bad speed on the cue ball thereby missing position on the next ball.
there are obviously things i have yet to learn about this wonderful game/hobby that we all, hopefully, share a passion for. and while this shot seems a no-brainer, i was just wondering if there might be any tips out there from the experienced that would help one execute this shot.
i learned a thing or two here. for example, one poster was talking about being sure to draw back far enough, possibly even over-doing it. this would have been much better than leaving it short - like i did.
thanks for the responses to this thread, and all my shot threads. i learn from some of your ideas/thoughts. and to those with negative posts about my threads, come now, let us reason, everybody can get better, take nothing for granted. i've even seen professionals miss shots on ESPN with cue ball in hand, so even the simplest things are of benefit.
regards,
DCP
p.s. anybody that doubts Tom Rossman and his teaching abilities just doesnt have a clue how wise this man really is.
thanks for all the various responses. while, yes, the shot seems simple enough, any shot can be missed and any shot can end up with bad speed on the cue ball thereby missing position on the next ball.
there are obviously things i have yet to learn about this wonderful game/hobby that we all, hopefully, share a passion for. and while this shot seems a no-brainer, i was just wondering if there might be any tips out there from the experienced that would help one execute this shot.
i learned a thing or two here. for example, one poster was talking about being sure to draw back far enough, possibly even over-doing it. this would have been much better than leaving it short - like i did.
thanks for the responses to this thread, and all my shot threads. i learn from some of your ideas/thoughts. and to those with negative posts about my threads, come now, let us reason, everybody can get better, take nothing for granted. i've even seen professionals miss shots on ESPN with cue ball in hand, so even the simplest things are of benefit.
regards,
DCP
p.s. anybody that doubts Tom Rossman and his teaching abilities just doesnt have a clue how wise this man really is.
DrCue'sProtege said:
This is not questioning Tom Rossman, it's questioning you using his name. You have been playing and practicing for years, and you don't know how to draw the cueball back a few inches. There is something wrong here. I think he would be ashamed to call you his protege. You have been making these same topics for years, ever since you joined this board. How in the hell can you ask for advice on this shot? All you have to do is set it up, and do it again. If you come up short, either aim a little lower, or hit a little harder. It's as simple as that.
You are almost as bad as PoolSleuth.
slampro
Looking for a shot
If I was facing this shot. I would be happy with (and aim for)position at any of those letters. I would also be OK with just a stop shot and the cut the 9, if that is what I had to face next(just make the ball). What about a touch of follow to get on the other side(close to siderail)? That would give me a shot too. I also see a hard, lots of follow three rail position. There are always many ways to shoot a certain shot. Look for the path that you are most comfortable with at that moment and stroke that cueball.
On this shot however, I would draw back medium speed with the idea of drawing to the rail, hopefully with enough speed as to not rest on rail, but if I do, OH WELL! I wil still make the shot and win!
I like target area position play on this shot rather then specific loaction. I like the post about not underdoing it in this instance.
On this shot however, I would draw back medium speed with the idea of drawing to the rail, hopefully with enough speed as to not rest on rail, but if I do, OH WELL! I wil still make the shot and win!
I like target area position play on this shot rather then specific loaction. I like the post about not underdoing it in this instance.
Billy_Bob said:
True, a smaller shaft will allow you to get more life out of your tip. For example, you can expect to get 6% more life from your dime shaped Moori tip on a 12.5 mm shaft than I can get from the same dime shaped Moori on my 13 mm shaft.
By the same token, given the same tip radius, I can hit the cue ball farther from the center without risking a miscue with my 13 mm shaft, compared to your 12.5 mm shaft. It is all about trade offs.
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