Should a scratch on the 8 be a loss?

  • Thread starter Thread starter a_susie_cue
  • Start date Start date

Scratch on the 8 is a loss or not when the 8 was not pocketed?

  • Yes, a scratch on the 8 should be a loss

    Votes: 46 46.5%

  • No, your opponent should get ball in hand

    Votes: 48 48.5%

  • Doesn't matter either way

    Votes: 3 3.0%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 2 2.0%
  • Total voters
    99
A

a_susie_cue

Guest
How do you feel about a scratch on the 8 being a loss when the 8 stays on the table? I have mixed feelings about it. Many of the leagues in which I play, a scratch on the 8 is a loss no matter what. I have also played in leagues where your opponent gets ball in hand after a scratch on the 8 but the 8 was not pocketed.

What do all of you prefer?
 
I really do like the BCA rules. I think the game should end when the 8-ball is pocketed (except on break). In general, I think it's important there are no short-cuts to winning.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
I really do like the BCA rules. I think the game should end when the 8-ball is pocketed (except on break). In general, I think it's important there are no short-cuts to winning.
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TAP-TAP-TAP
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
I really do like the BCA rules. I think the game should end when the 8-ball is pocketed (except on break). In general, I think it's important there are no short-cuts to winning.
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I'm also inclined to think you should not lose for pocketing the 8 ball early, it should just spot. After all, it's another short-cut to winning. It would also eliminate some stalemate situations without needing a 3-foul rule.

I haven't thought much about it, though, maybe this would have some negative consequences. I don't really like games where the 8-ball hangs up early on and you always need to worry about avoiding it. Sure, it requires skill and strategy, but it's sort of an arbitrary occurrence which changes the nature of the game completely. But maybe that's just part of 8-ball.
 
ineedaspot said:
I'm also inclined to think you should not lose for pocketing the 8 ball early, it should just spot. After all, it's another short-cut to winning. It would also eliminate some stalemate situations without needing a 3-foul rule.

I haven't thought much about it, though, maybe this would have some negative consequences. I don't really like games where the 8-ball hangs up early on and you always need to worry about avoiding it. Sure, it requires skill and strategy, but it's sort of an arbitrary occurrence which changes the nature of the game completely. But maybe that's just part of 8-ball.
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Interesting in concept but in practice, I think you may have to penalize people for making the 8-ball out of turn. Coin-op tables will have it no other way and if you didn't penalize the shooter, it would completely change how hanging 8-balls are handled.
 
I always played that it was a loss, but I could be comfortable playing either way. My big gripe is the extent to which everyone out there is used to playing with a different set of 8-ball rules. I just got a table in my basement a couple of months ago, and play with mostly non-serious recreational players. (which is how I'd describe myself). I feel like I have to spend a while at first explaining house rules. There are some rules on which there is no uniformity at all. First example:

1. It seems that most if not all serious players play that when you sink a ball on the break you go again but you do not get to claim solids or stripes until you call a shot and sink it. When I mention that rule to most visitors to my table, they insist that if you sink a solid (for example) on the break you are then automatically solid.

2. If you don't hit a ball or three sides is it a scratch?

3. Can you combo off the 8 as a neutral ball?

4. If you sink the 8 on the break is it a win, loss, re-rack or what?

Sorry to hijack this post--just thought I'd vent my frustrations.
 
Different rules

Most league rules are designed to make the game faster and easier. This means more quarters and more quarters. The rules in almost all amateur leagues have zero to do with elevating the game of pool. It is just for fun. If you're serious about your pool game...the bar leagues may not be your best option. Unfortunately...it may be your ONLY option.
 
I like the BCA rules. It penalizes fouls (i.e. the 8 ball not on the table) but not misses (e.g. you get an ugly position and therefore fail to hit the 8 ball). IMO, your poll doesn't cover the whole scenario, for instance, 8 ball jumping off the table vs didn't hit the 8 ball both fit your description but I would treat them differently.
 
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I'm actually surprised to see that, as of now, more than half of the voters want a scratch on the 8-ball to be a loss.

In my opinion, if all of my opponents balls are gone and he gives me ball in hand, I am a huge favorite to win the game. I should at least have to earn it.

I don't understand what mystical property the 8-ball has that could cause the rule on scratches to change when it's time to shoot the 8. :confused:
 
219Dave said:
I always played that it was a loss, but I could be comfortable playing either way. My big gripe is the extent to which everyone out there is used to playing with a different set of 8-ball rules. I just got a table in my basement a couple of months ago, and play with mostly non-serious recreational players. (which is how I'd describe myself). I feel like I have to spend a while at first explaining house rules. There are some rules on which there is no uniformity at all. First example:

1. It seems that most if not all serious players play that when you sink a ball on the break you go again but you do not get to claim solids or stripes until you call a shot and sink it. When I mention that rule to most visitors to my table, they insist that if you sink a solid (for example) on the break you are then automatically solid.

2. If you don't hit a ball or three sides is it a scratch?

3. Can you combo off the 8 as a neutral ball?

4. If you sink the 8 on the break is it a win, loss, re-rack or what?

Sorry to hijack this post--just thought I'd vent my frustrations.
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What you could do is to print out a rule set that you like, and use it for your house rules. That may not save you any time explaining the rules, but it may come in handy anyway. You may want to consider using the BCA 8-ball rules, which are available online here:

http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_8ball

In addition to the 8-ball rules, you'll also need the general pool rules:

http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_pocket

The answers to your questions, based on BCA rules are:

1. Open

2. For a legal shot, one of your object balls must be contacted first, and then a ball (any ball) must hit a cushion after contact or drop into a pocket. Otherwise it is a foul. If a ball is frozen to the cushion before the shot, driving into that cushion does not give you credit for hitting a cushion.

3. Even if the table is open, you still cannot contact the 8-ball first. However, it can always be used in combos. For example, if you are solids, then the 3-8-4 combo is legal.

4. The breaker has the option to break a new rack, or have the 8-ball spotted and continue shooting. If the cueball also dropped on the break, then these options are given to the incoming player.
 
I agree. One of the first things I did after getting my table is buy a BCA rule book. I explain that these are the house rules and will settle any argument. I also usually explain, before it comes up, rules that are different from some "bar rules" that a lot of people play by. A scratch on the 8 is one of them. By the way, to answer the original post I play a scratch on the 8 is ball in hand, not loss of game.
 
For me its part of the game....inbedded really...part of a decent 8 ball safety involves a pocket begging for the cue ball ect....

Although I get and agree with the greater point of the thread that a win should be won and not given as a rule.But then again as a rule,scratching on the 8 is a loss given the rules...in other words..play 9 ball lol.

For me scratching on the 8 is a loss.Period.Its just built into the game and must be anticipated or exploited as such.

(I voted loss btw ;))
 
I enjoy BCA rules for 8 ball, but I also am in favor of the rule that states that the 8 made on the break wins the rack for the breaker.
 
I usually like the rule that is fairest, rather than just going by what's traditional. But on some traditions I guess it's ok to settle. I'd prefer ball in hand but it wouldn't break my heart if someone makes it a loss of game. With good players it's the same result either way usually.

For a league I think having it be a loss will help the weaker player, which might be a good thing. For a really bad player, even winning 2 against a better player might seem impossible, but suddenly it gets a lot more possible if the better player scratches on the 8.
 
I can't even believe there's a question. It seems like rules are always getting screwed with anymore..to make things more fair.IT"S POOL..not tiddly winks.
 
dbankjr said:
I can't even believe there's a question. It seems like rules are always getting screwed with anymore..to make things more fair.IT"S POOL..not tiddly winks.
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Well, I think the point of the question is that there are multiple sets of rules, and this is one area where, for instance, APA and BCA rules differ.

Anyway, I totally agree with Jude's first post on this.

-Andrew
 
Ah, I see.
Maybe I have been hasty in my comment.
It's probably just the old dog comming out it me. Both arguments have merit..still I voted it's a loss.
 
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