should pro tournaments ban the jump cue?

The_JV said:
Maybe I'm describing that wrong... The shaft deflection and CB squirt for that matter are the result of off center contact. That squirt and deflection absorb energy. With a direct concentric hit on the shaft, a LD or HD will deliver the same amount of energy transfer. Once you move off center you now have shaft deflection and CB squirt. You have a choice as a player. Put as much energy into the CB as possible and deal with mostly squirt, or use a "LD" shaft and deal with considerably less squirt but loose some of the energy transfer into the deflecting shaft.

A jump shot exacerbates the "LD" shaft's "high deflection", (yes I did that on purpose...lol). You're shoving the CB into the slate with an off center hit. This causes far more of the shot energy to be absorbed by the shaft by excessive deflection. A solid shaft doesn't bend as easily so the CB is forced out of the way.

This sounds like a great slow mo comparison for Dr.Dave to do a video on.
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Haha a LD shaft does indeed have high deflection but "gives" the cueball less deflection. Since something's gotta deflect, I'd rather it be the cue ball and my tool remain solid. I can adapt for cueball deflection but cue stick deflection just feels bad in my hands, it's like the feel of a miscue to me, and that is a bad connotation for me, and so feels bad to me. I'm not saying it has anything to do with performance or results, but a non stiff shaft deflecting just feels bad to me. It really is probably just personal preference but the feeling just makes me cringe.

My wife has a Diviney cue and it's a thing of beauty. The balance point just causes the cue to float in your hand as if it were levitating. It has a LD shaft, and it feels whippy to me. It really barely deflects the CB at all and she loves it. I can shoot fine with it, but if I were to get my own, I think I'd see if he could build me a more traditional non LD shaft. It's about the feel and I have a certain feel I'm looking for. I also use hard tips to help get this feel. She likes a medium, I can't stand it. Same with soft tips, I don't like the feel. I'm not arguing about results or anything, it's a feel and how the heck do you describe a feel?

Listen to this:
The notes don't ring properly, the strings twang and you can hear a lot of non "pure" notes ringing out. That's what makes the music. The music is in the non perfect human adaptations. This guy created more sound on a $15 sears guitar than someone with a concert quality instrument. I'd rather have a bit of deflection to play with and create some "twang" with the cueball's flight.

I don't think we'll all ever come to the conclusion that a LD shaft is better or worse, because it's not just about scientific results and physics formulas. It's about the feel we're looking for both in the shaft and how a cue ball dances. Pool is science, but it's science applied like how a blues player hits some "off" notes.
 
I play with the predator Z2 and a very hard tip because it provides tons of feedback and deflects like a snooker cue. At least to me it does... Anything larger than the 11.75mm tip on the Z2 feels like a bat in my hands.

I know of very accomplished players switching back to solid shafts in search for that additional squirt on the CB. The explanation I was given was that the "squirt" was something that was easily accounted for, if not desired when playing soft touch games like 14.1 or one pocket. I can't quantify that, but it was what I was told none the less.
 
The_JV said:
A jump shot exacerbates the "LD" shaft's "high deflection", (yes I did that on purpose...lol). You're shoving the CB into the slate with an off center hit. This causes far more of the shot energy to be absorbed by the shaft by excessive deflection. A solid shaft doesn't bend as easily so the CB is forced out of the way.

This sounds like a great slow mo comparison for Dr.Dave to do a video on.
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Sounds legit to me. I'll be surprised if Dave doesn't already have a video on this, at least planned. But I think it would need pretty good slow motion to show much. I wonder if there's anything revealing in the Jacksonville Tapes.

pj
chgo
 
The_JV said:
Maybe I'm describing that wrong... The shaft deflection and CB squirt for that matter are the result of off center contact. That squirt and deflection absorb energy. With a direct concentric hit on the shaft, a LD or HD will deliver the same amount of energy transfer. Once you move off center you now have shaft deflection and CB squirt. You have a choice as a player. Put as much energy into the CB as possible and deal with mostly squirt, or use a "LD" shaft and deal with considerably less squirt but loose some of the energy transfer into the deflecting shaft.

A jump shot exacerbates the "LD" shaft's "high deflection", (yes I did that on purpose...lol). You're shoving the CB into the slate with an off center hit. This causes far more of the shot energy to be absorbed by the shaft by excessive deflection. A solid shaft doesn't bend as easily so the CB is forced out of the way.

This sounds like a great slow mo comparison for Dr.Dave to do a video on.
Click to expand...
I’m confused. Since the ‘jump shot’ is typically (?) performed with a center ball hit, but jacked up, where does squirt/deflection come into play? I assumed the lighter ‘jump’ cue & hard tip allowed a quicker rebound, thus not trapping the CB (I’ll have to admit it’s not a subject I am well versed on). My cues are LD, but I am still able to loft over the edge of obstructing OBs successfully, and leap onto the pack when my 14.1 breakshot angle is too straight, which is largely the extent of my interest.
 
If not a total ban, best compromise I've seen is: You can't use a jump cue when you hook yourself.
 
9andout said:
If not a total ban, best compromise I've seen is: You can't use a jump cue when you hook yourself.
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That doesn't work best because whether you are hooked can be debated. Opponent can contend after a jump cue is used that you weren't hooked, so the shot is illegal.

The only compromise that really works is that you can only use your jump cue on the first shot of any inning. This throws any possible debate out the window and covers the rule you want, which is denying use of the jump cue when you hook yourself.
 
I think the only time a jump cue should be used is when you can't see the lowest numbered ball on the table after the break. The push rule could be taken out of the game. This would allow pool players who invested in their game to purchase a jump cue and be proficient with it, to use their skill. It would also give incentive to those players who don't jump to learn.
 
DynoDan said:
I’m confused. Since the ‘jump shot’ is typically (?) performed with a center ball hit, but jacked up, where does squirt/deflection come into play?
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I don't see how squirt could be the problem. I suspect LD shafts' jumping problems are related to reduced mass in the tip area, maybe causing it to "give" more along its long axis (not laterally as in squirt) on impact with the ball/table, absorbing energy and increasing contact time, maybe partially "trapping" the cue ball.

That's all conjecture, of course, but some of my best.

pj
chgo
 
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jacob said:
I think the only time a jump cue should be used is when you can't see the lowest numbered ball on the table after the break. The push rule could be taken out of the game. This would allow pool players who invested in their game to purchase a jump cue and be proficient with it, to use their skill. It would also give incentive to those players who don't jump to learn.
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Yes, but since a player may be very close to the obstructing ball after the break, this rule would re-introduce an element of luck that the pushout rule has managed to largely eliminate.
 
jacob said:
I think the only time a jump cue should be used is when you can't see the lowest numbered ball on the table after the break. The push rule could be taken out of the game. This would allow pool players who invested in their game to purchase a jump cue and be proficient with it, to use their skill. It would also give incentive to those players who don't jump to learn.
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I would think to allow this to be all encompassing we should swap out "lowest numbered ball" with "desired object ball". I have seen and have done so myself, used a jump as an opening shot in an 8 ball pattern. Why...?..., because doing so offered the best opportunity to win the game.

Speaking personally..., I wouldn't want to see the push out removed from the specific rotation games. At a high level of play, there's a ton of strategy and gamesmanship in the push out.
 
DynoDan said:
I’m confused. Since the ‘jump shot’ is typically (?) performed with a center ball hit, but jacked up, where does squirt/deflection come into play?
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This may boil down to jumping methodology. I can only speak for myself here.

When I perform a jump shot, I make contact to the CB off of its equator. So I'm either playing follow or draw if you will, (extremely minor and shape dependent). I don't ever recall hitting a successful jump striking dead center on the equator. For sake of clarity, keep in mind the CB equator is relative to your cue angle. In either case of the off equator hit, shaft deflection is a reaction to that contact. With that said, I could be doing it all wrong, and maybe an exacting center CB hit is the better method, which would subsequently throw my take on why "LD" shafts are horrible at jumping out the window. All I know is that I've been hitting my jump cue in the described (off equator) manner since I started using it, and the results have been great. Attempting the same with a LD shaft is comical.
 
The_JV said:
This may boil down to jumping methodology. I can only speak for myself here.

When I perform a jump shot, I make contact to the CB off of its equator. So I'm either playing follow or draw if you will, (extremely minor and shape dependent). I don't ever recall hitting a successful jump striking dead center on the equator. For sake of clarity, keep in mind the CB equator is relative to your cue angle. In either case of the off equator hit, shaft deflection is a reaction to that contact. With that said, I could be doing it all wrong, and maybe an exacting center CB hit is the better method, which would subsequently throw my take on why "LD" shafts are horrible at jumping out the window. All I know is that I've been hitting my jump cue in the described (off equator) manner since I started using it, and the results have been great. Attempting the same with a LD shaft is comical.
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Every jump shot results in a double hit. So, technically, they're all fouls.
 
sjm said:
That doesn't work best because whether you are hooked can be debated. Opponent can contend after a jump cue is used that you weren't hooked, so the shot is illegal.

The only compromise that really works is that you can only use your jump cue on the first shot of any inning. This throws any possible debate out the window and covers the rule you want, which is denying use of the jump cue when you hook yourself.
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Let's make that rule universal! lol
 
Bob Jewett said:
That is false.
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Sorry. Shouldn't say "every". The vast majority of high elevation jump shots will result in the cue ball grazing the shaft of the pool cue a second time. I must watch my hurried messages when I don't have time. Some super slow motion video would really be nice. I think there's probably some theoretical maximum angle you can accomplish a legal jump shot. But, if you're following through the cue ball, the cue ball should rebound at the angle you drive the ball into the slate. Simple trajectory of some shots would necessarily dictate they are fouls. Think about Robert Byrne and his double hit videos. This would be the exact same thing, but applied vertically instead of horizontally. X axis and Y axis behaviour should be the same, no?
 
I believe the originally conceived theory/spirit of the game/rules (?) prohibited intentionally causing ANY ball to leave the playing surface. Much like the way a shooter is now given the ‘benefit-of-the-doubt‘ regarding split-hits, those that jacked up slightly probably also got a pass when the CB was lofted, though eventually people just couldn’t pretend any longer that the most talented players were continually jumping directly over OBs accidentally. So, to discourage controversy, the practice was likely legitimized out of expediency. A ‘slippery slope’, that has led to the current situation, where seemingly anything goes (pink 4 ball!).
 
DynoDan said:
I’m confused. Since the ‘jump shot’ is typically (?) performed with a center ball hit, but jacked up, where does squirt/deflection come into play?
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A jump shot can be performed to jump-draw, jump-follow, jump-arc-left, and jump-arc-right (some might say jump-massé based on the curvature after landing) depending on where the cue hits the CB.

So, while the majority of the energy imparted to the CB needs to be "through" its CoM, a bit of that energy can be used to put spin on the ball in a any of 4 directions (and blends of 2 orthogonal axes.)

Shawn Armstrong said:
Sorry. Shouldn't say "every". The vast majority of high elevation jump shots will result in the cue ball grazing the shaft of the pool cue a second time.
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Only when performed poorly--and this is one BIG reason jump cues are short and light ! they are light so the tip can deflect out of the way of the CB as it rises from the table, and they are short so the energy used to deflect the shaft/tip away from the CB is small (compared to a typical play cue).

High jump elevation shots are almost required to hit the CB with jump-draw, so that the shaft/tip deflect out of the near vertical CB direction. Consequently these are very difficult.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Sorry. Shouldn't say "every". The vast majority of high elevation jump shots will result in the cue ball grazing the shaft of the pool cue a second time.
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I'm just catching up now.... I'm glad you recanted the original statement... ;)

However since that original statement had my description of how 'I' perform jump shots quoted. I will repeat, (as stated earlier in the thread) that I do not perform close proximity jumps that require extreme vertical (ball height) with less than 5-6 inches of space between CB and obstruction. I simply don't get that kind of action with me jump/break. I have done them in practice with pure jumpers but find the CB control is minimal so unless I'm merely going for contact, I wouldn't bother in an actual match.

Whether or not those close proximity jumps are fouls..., ...?...I do not know. I'll take your word for it.
 
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