should pro tournaments ban the jump cue?

[sjm]

Here you go... Just saw this and thought of your comments here

Thanks for sharing. Agree with Nick Varner, who asserted in his commentary that the rule changes used in this match made the game more difficult. The truly elite don't need the jump cue as a crutch for when they misplay position, and this rule gives the great position players an even bigger advantage.

 

[The_JV]

To non-pool players you are not shooting good pool unless you are banking, kicking or jumping over a ball, which is funny since the real good play is exactly the opposite of that.

yeppers... I can't agree more.

The would be Nascar fans don't watch for the constant left turns or drafting either. They want to see the 20 car pile ups. Which element do you think is more likely to get them to tune in a second time...? The entertaining part of the race is actually the worst outcome of bad form.

On the flip side, Tiger Woods brought countless to the game of golf, because he was emotional and hit the most outrageous shots to get himself in great position. Most of the golf purists poo poo'd on his shot choices until they realized he could actually cash the cheques he was attempting to write. Now to the best of my knowledge, Tiger didn't have a specialty golf club he would use to bail himself out. Just raw ability and the guts to go for it. However it was his outright aggression (offence) that people wanted to see.

When played "correctly" and at the highest level, pool is absolutely boring to watch for the uninitiated. It's no different than golf, tennis or even Nascar. Until you know the intricacies of what's going on what is there to keep you engaged...? I'm not trying to say that the jump stick is the saviour of the popularity of pool. Just that it allows for a greater opportunity to engage viewers. That in itself should keep it in the bag.

Long vs short, who cares... Long just means you're going to see less of it. So if you rather pool present a more boring 'professional' game to the would be fan, that's fine. Let's just not complain about the lack of interest anymore.

I say we embrace the mosconi cup atmosphere for all tourneys and players can only use jumpers....lol

 

[briankenobi]

But that would be out of the realm of tournaments. In trick shots you can use a dead duck to shoot a ball if you want. To non-pool players you are not shooting good pool unless you are banking, kicking or jumping over a ball, which is funny since the real good play is exactly the opposite of that.

Not sure what you mean about using a dead duck to shoot a ball. My guess is the circus style stuff that had been on ESPN the last couple of years or the stuff that you see online. Those types of shots don't happen in our tournaments. Its more pool related type shots. I do agree that the circus style shots have set trick shots back in my opinion. However the fact still remains is that its more exciting to watch and got higher ratings on ESPN compared to regular pool.

Some may view the jump cue as a crutch because people can get out a a bad spot they put themselves in. Would those same people consider a sand wedge a crutch because you hit your ball in the sand? I respect that people don't like jump cues and want pool to be like it was before. But in my opinion the jump cue has added a different dynamic to pool and more excitement when it happens. Just me 2 cents.

 

[The_JV]

But in my opinion the jump cue has added a different dynamic to pool and more excitement when it happens. Just me 2 cents.

Careful... I don't think they used up all the tar and feathers when I suggested the short stick has added dynamics to the game...lol

 

[briankenobi]

Careful... I don't think they used up all the tar and feathers when I suggested the short stick has added dynamics to the game...lol

haha. It can be another costume I could add to my cosplay collection.

 

[logical]

Pool is not golf.

No need to ban the cues if your intent is to take jumping out of the game, just ban jumping itself.

Banning the specialty cues will not reduce the amount of jumping that takes place at the pro level by any measurable amount. And what exactly really differentiates a jump cue from any other besides length? (rhetorical question, I know what a jump cue is).

 

[sjm]

Banning the specialty cues will not reduce the amount of jumping that takes place at the pro level by any measurable amount.

In my experience, in the days when a jump had to be executed with a full cue, you saw 98% less jump shots. Very few players showed any proficiency jumping with a full cue, and entire events would sometimes pass without a single jump shot.

 

[The_JV]

Banning the specialty cues will not reduce the amount of jumping that takes place at the pro level by any measurable amount.

I wish I could quantify my opinion on this, but I think you're way off here.

 

[The_JV]

Very few players showed any proficiency jumping with a full cue, and entire events would sometimes pass without a single jump shot.

Speaking for myself... I can't jump with my player. The pred Z2 I use simply deflects too much to allow what most consider a real jump by today's standards. Maybe hop over the extreme edge of a ball at most. Solid maple, hard tip, maybe if it was long.

 

[logical]

In my experience, in the days when a jump had to be executed with a full cue, you saw 98% less jump shots. Very few players showed any proficiency jumping with a full cue, and entire events would sometimes pass without a single jump shot.

I wish I could quantify my opinion on this, but I think you're way off here.

I suspect you are both more knowledgeable than I on this. I probably stepped too far outside my wheelhouse since last time I watched much pro pool regularly was on Wide World of Sports.

Do you think its all about the specialty cues or has it just become something that pros started taking seriously and practicing to stay competative with other pros that were better "jumpers"?

 

[The_JV]

I suspect you are both more knowledgeable than I on this. I probably stepped too far outside my wheelhouse since last time I watched much pro pool regularly was on Wide World of Sports.

Do you think its all about the specialty cues or has it just become something that pros started taking seriously and practicing to stay competative with other pros that were better "jumpers"?

lol... wide world of sports.... that's a while back

Honestly..., if it weren't for the short cue I doubt it would have been taken anymore serious than it was in yesteryear, and Earl would have one less thing to complain about. Without question the short cue has made jumping way easier. However like the confusion regarding long vs short cue jumping, I believe people think getting over a ball easier equates to continuing your turn at the table easier.

I wish there were real long terms stats / analytics for our game. I would love to see long cue attempts vs makes vs sell outs, compared to stats against short cues. I think the attempts would be in magnitudes of extra zeros but the 'makes' wouldn't follow the same trend.

 

[sjm]

I suspect you are both more knowledgeable than I on this. I probably stepped too far outside my wheelhouse since last time I watched much pro pool regularly was on Wide World of Sports.

Do you think its all about the specialty cues or has it just become something that pros started taking seriously and practicing to stay competative with other pros that were better "jumpers"?

It's mostly, but not entirely about the specialty cues, which have made jumping so easy that players at all levels of skill can jump, even very weak players. After all, some of the story is that nine ball has evolved from its "shootout" version of forty years ago, in which a pushout was permitted in some situations where a jump shot would be common today. Now, nine ball is played with Texas Express rules, and a pushout is permitted only on the shot following the break.

 

[jeffj2h]

Mosconi Cup appeals to casual fans, so I’d keep the jump cue for it.

Other events appeal to more serious fans and I’d ban the jump cue.


Sent from my iPad using AzBilliards Forums

 

[David in FL]

No need to ban the cues if your intent is to take jumping out of the game, just ban jumping itself.

I’m curious. How would you define “jump”?

Remember, a rule needs to be written so as to cover all situations without ambiguity...

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Speaking for myself... I can't jump with my player. The pred Z2 I use simply deflects too much to allow what most consider a real jump by today's standards. Maybe hop over the extreme edge of a ball at most. Solid maple, hard tip, maybe if it was long.

Predator shafts are low squirt - low squirt shafts are notoriously hard to jump with.

(And low CB squirt doesn't mean high shaft "deflection".)

pj
chgo

 

[garczar]

Whatever terminology you choose, low-deflection shafts aren't worth a crap to jump with. Stiff, hi-def shafts with HARD tips are only way to go.

 

[The_JV]

Predator shafts are low squirt - low squirt shafts are notoriously hard to jump with.

(And low CB squirt doesn't mean high shaft "deflection".)

pj
chgo

In terms of their own characteristics. Predator shafts deflect more than solid shafts. I cannot impart the necessary energy into the CB to perform a jump with a shaft that bends on contact. "bends" = "deflects".

I choose to describe characteristics with words as they are defined.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Predator shafts deflect more than solid shafts. I cannot impart the necessary energy into the CB to perform a jump with a shaft that bends on contact. "bends" = "deflects".

I've always thought all the shaft deflection happens after the cue ball is gone. But I've also always wondered why low squirt cues jump so badly. As far as I know they can drive the cue ball as fast as high squirt cues, so why can't they deliver the necessary force for easier jumping?

I choose to describe characteristics with words as they are defined.

I try to choose words in common usage for the topic.

pj
chgo

 

[boogieman]

yeppers... I can't agree more.

The would be Nascar fans don't watch for the constant left turns or drafting either. They want to see the 20 car pile ups. Which element do you think is more likely to get them to tune in a second time...? The entertaining part of the race is actually the worst outcome of bad form.

I never understood how Rally wasn't a thing in the US, but NASCAR was. I mean, one literally has cars on all types of surface, windy roads, elevation changes and occasionally cars literally jumping hills. The other? Left turn Clyde.

 

[The_JV]

I've always thought all the shaft deflection happens after the cue ball is gone. But I've also always wondered why low squirt cues jump so badly. As far as I know they can drive the cue ball as fast as high squirt cues, so why can't they deliver the necessary force for easier jumping?

Maybe I'm describing that wrong... The shaft deflection and CB squirt for that matter are the result of off center contact. That squirt and deflection absorb energy. With a direct concentric hit on the shaft, a LD or HD will deliver the same amount of energy transfer. Once you move off center you now have shaft deflection and CB squirt. You have a choice as a player. Put as much energy into the CB as possible and deal with mostly squirt, or use a "LD" shaft and deal with considerably less squirt but loose some of the energy transfer into the deflecting shaft.

A jump shot exacerbates the "LD" shaft's "high deflection", (yes I did that on purpose...lol). You're shoving the CB into the slate with an off center hit. This causes far more of the shot energy to be absorbed by the shaft by excessive deflection. A solid shaft doesn't bend as easily so the CB is forced out of the way.

This sounds like a great slow mo comparison for Dr.Dave to do a video on.