Should this have been legal?

[ndakotan]

Our 8-ball league rules state: Player cannot raise cue above elbow when attempting a masse shot. Doing so is a foul. Jump shots and scoop shots are also illegal." Another rule specifically disallows double hits, saying they are a foul.

In a league tournament, my opponent's c.b. was within 1/2" of his o.b. straight into a pocket. He raised his arm to shoot vertical down (from a masse bridge/stance position) on the c.b. to get draw without a double hit, and I told him I want a judge to watch (thinking the judge would rule it a masse shot, which is illegal). The judge ruled that the player could shoot the shot, and it would not be a foul providing he actually gets draw (much to my surprise). I asked if he considered the shot a masse and he said no, masse is only shooting down on the side of the c.b. to get swerve.

He made the shot, but I still beat him. Most of the knowledgeable players that I talked to were surprised that the player was allowed to take the shot, which tells me that the rules are at least poorly written.

Was I wrong to think this is a masse? Why would they allow shooting down on the ball to get draw, but not to get swerve? They are the same skill and pose the same risk to the cloth. Does this make sense?

 

[memikey]

Opinion.......you are wrong to think that a straight in pot without swerve is a masse shot but at the same time, if the underlying purpose of the rule was to prevent potential damage to the table, you are right to think that the rule in question was badly written.

 

[ScottW]

I suspect because in the situation you describe, that was the only way to make a legal shot without double-hitting the cue. Whereas a normal masse, to try and squirt around another ball - one have other viable options in that case - one could kick at the other ball, for example.

Or, the judge in question is the other player's cousin-in-law.

 

[StevenPWaldon]

I think the mistake was playing in a tournament with those crazy rules.

Our 8-ball league rules state: Player cannot raise cue above elbow when attempting a masse shot. Doing so is a foul. Jump shots and scoop shots are also illegal." Another rule specifically disallows double hits, saying they are a foul.

In a league tournament, my opponent's c.b. was within 1/2" of his o.b. straight into a pocket. He raised his arm to shoot vertical down (from a masse bridge/stance position) on the c.b. to get draw without a double hit, and I told him I want a judge to watch (thinking the judge would rule it a masse shot, which is illegal). The judge ruled that the player could shoot the shot, and it would not be a foul providing he actually gets draw (much to my surprise). I asked if he considered the shot a masse and he said no, masse is only shooting down on the side of the c.b. to get swerve.

He made the shot, but I still beat him. Most of the knowledgeable players that I talked to were surprised that the player was allowed to take the shot, which tells me that the rules are at least poorly written.

Was I wrong to think this is a masse? Why would they allow shooting down on the ball to get draw, but not to get swerve? They are the same skill and pose the same risk to the cloth. Does this make sense?

 

[hang-the-9]

Our 8-ball league rules state: Player cannot raise cue above elbow when attempting a masse shot. Doing so is a foul. Jump shots and scoop shots are also illegal." Another rule specifically disallows double hits, saying they are a foul.

In a league tournament, my opponent's c.b. was within 1/2" of his o.b. straight into a pocket. He raised his arm to shoot vertical down (from a masse bridge/stance position) on the c.b. to get draw without a double hit, and I told him I want a judge to watch (thinking the judge would rule it a masse shot, which is illegal). The judge ruled that the player could shoot the shot, and it would not be a foul providing he actually gets draw (much to my surprise). I asked if he considered the shot a masse and he said no, masse is only shooting down on the side of the c.b. to get swerve.

He made the shot, but I still beat him. Most of the knowledgeable players that I talked to were surprised that the player was allowed to take the shot, which tells me that the rules are at least poorly written.

Was I wrong to think this is a masse? Why would they allow shooting down on the ball to get draw, but not to get swerve? They are the same skill and pose the same risk to the cloth. Does this make sense?

This is pretty much a judgement call by the official. Since the rules state "to make a masse or jump" and he was not playing either, I'd have to give it to your opponent. If the rules were made to keep bangers from ripping cloth, you should ask them to change the wording to "Any elevation of the cue is a foul" The issue is that many shots require something similar, which is why I do not play in any league that deviates from standard world rules. I have drawn balls off the rail, but needed to jack up a lot to get the right hit.

 

[Pushout]

I think the mistake was playing in a tournament with those crazy rules.

Ditto. Wouldn't even consider it.

 

[mbvl]

Shooting down on the cue ball is masse whether it curves or not. And, yes, those a silly rules.

Mark

 

[hang-the-9]

Shooting down on the cue ball is masse whether it curves or not. And, yes, those a silly rules.

Mark

I have to disagree. What's a jump shot then? A masse through the air?

mas?s? (m-s)
n.
A stroke in billiards made by striking the cue ball off center with the cue held nearly vertically, so that the cue ball moves in a curve around one ball before hitting another ball.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[French, from past participle of masser, to make a mass? shot, from masse, mace (an early form of billiard cue), from Old French, club; see mace1.]

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Shooting down on the cue ball is masse whether it curves or not.

I'd say shooting down on the cue ball creates "masse spin" but not necessarily a "masse shot". For instance, when you shoot a cut shot with draw or follow, the CB curves after contact with the OB because it has "masse spin", but I doubt that you'd call that a "masse shot". In other words, I think it's legitimate to call only certain kinds of shots with masse spin "masse shots", and this may not be one of them.

pj
chgo

 

[Russ Chewning]

I'd say shooting down on the cue ball creates "masse spin" but not necessarily a "masse shot". For instance, when you shoot a cut shot with draw or follow, the CB curves after contact with the OB because it has "masse spin", but I doubt that you'd call that a "masse shot". In other words, I think it's legitimate to call only certain kinds of shots with masse spin "masse shots", and this may not be one of them.

pj
chgo

A "masse" shot is specifically a shot with SIDEspin.

The shot the person in question shot was actually a "piquet" shot.

I thought pretty much everyone on here had read "Byrne's Standard Guide to Pool and Billiards", which details the piquet shot. I am surprised noone had identified the shot yet in this thread.

Per wikipedia: Either a Mass? shot with no english, or a shot in which the cue stick is steeply angled, but not held quite as vertical as it is in full mass?

Russ

 

[Patrick Johnson]

A "masse" shot is specifically a shot with SIDEspin.

The shot the person in question shot was actually a "piquet" shot.

Is it also a piquet when the CB comes straight back without hitting an OB?

pj
chgo

 

[branpureza]

Shooting down on the cue ball is masse whether it curves or not. And, yes, those a silly rules.

Mark

Actually the shot in question (a jacked up draw/stun shot) is called a pique`

It's not a masse...

oops... I see someone already posted that.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Actually the shot in question (a jacked up draw/stun shot) is called a pique`

It's not a masse...

oops... I see someone already posted that.

Well, yes and no. In the US, the distinction is often not made between a pique and a masse. Try asking your TD if it's OK if you pique and he'll probably say that he doesn't even care if you quilt or knit, that's your own business.

I suspect that whoever wrote the rule intended to keep the clumsy, inept players from attempting shots with their sticks severely elevated. He may or may not have been thinking of the subtle difference between an elevated shot that curves and an elevated shot that comes back. I think you have to ask your league Board of Directors (or head ref, or???) about which shots are actually barred.