Show us your dead shots (combos, caroms, kisses)

[ace911]

Alright straight pool guys, I always like to learn about dead shots. I like to see some dead shots, the more complicated the better. I'm really especially interested to see kicks at dead balls, and also shots that are only possible because the weight of the stack make the balls dead, I guess you could call them trick dead balls or something.

 

[3andstop]

I'm not that good, but I can make dead balls much better than I can figure out how you guys do these diagrams.

 

[pdcue]

Alright straight pool guys, I always like to learn about dead shots. I like to see some dead shots, the more complicated the better. I'm really especially interested to see kicks at dead balls, and also shots that are only possible because the weight of the stack make the balls dead, I guess you could call them trick dead balls or something.

"and also shots that are only possible because the weight of the stack make the balls dead, I guess you could call them trick dead balls or something."

Are there such shots? Could you give an example or two?

Dale

 

[3andstop]

"and also shots that are only possible because the weight of the stack make the balls dead, I guess you could call them trick dead balls or something."

Are there such shots? Could you give an example or two?

Dale

One that comes to mind is a billiard off the tangent line. Most folks know that if your billiard was off by being a little low you could push it forward with some draw and the OB will force forward before releasing to the tangent line.

The opposite however is not possible. You can't use follow on the shot to backup a frozen kiss shot that is aiming slighty past the pocket. That is unless there is a mass of ball weight behind the kiss shot. Then, you actually can pop the OB in reverse a tad with follow using the weight of the rack behind the kiss.

 

[jondrums]

3andstop-
what you're saying is technically not true - you can "bend" a frozen carom using follow english on the cue, its just that you can't bend it very much. A trick I've heard for this is to elevate the cue a little so that the CB is skipping off the table a little, and thus retaining as much spin as possible at contact. I've also theorized privately that the CB landing slightly on top of the OB increases the contact time to transfer a bit more spin. Who knows???

Extra mass *frozen* behind it, can make the contact time longer and thus transfer a lot more follow/draw onto the carom ball - allowing it to bend much more. (as you mentioned already)

Jon

 

[3andstop]

3andstop-
what you're saying is technically not true - you can "bend" a frozen carom using follow english on the cue, its just that you can't bend it very much. A trick I've heard for this is to elevate the cue a little so that the CB is skipping off the table a little, and thus retaining as much spin as possible at contact. I've also theorized privately that the CB landing slightly on top of the OB increases the contact time to transfer a bit more spin. Who knows???

Extra mass *frozen* behind it, can make the contact time longer and thus transfer a lot more follow/draw onto the carom ball - allowing it to bend much more. (as you mentioned already)

Jon

I do apologize for not being able to create one of those table layouts, but if we are indeed talking about the same thing, I do not believe follow will pull a frozen carom ball backward from the tangent line unless there are additional balls supporting the carom balls. In fact I find myself using a touch of follow on a carom hit when no other balls are behind it just to insure a very true line off the tangent when I'm working in a tight quarter situation. Now is something microscopic is happening in terms of pulling the carom ball backward, I don't know.

I hope Bob Jewett is reading, I'd like to hear his take on this.

 

[jondrums]

I've set up the shot in the past and been able to get a very little "curve" on the OB using a firm force-follow stroke. I haven't found it to be useful unless there is added mass like you say.

I think the dramatic difference between follow and draw are because you can easily get a lot more spin to forward speed ratio with backspin than forward spin. Thus a lot more spin is transfered to the OB with draw than with follow.

But it makes sense that at least SOME of the follow spin from the CB is transfered to the OB, and that spin must have SOME effect on the ball's path, however minor.

 

[3andstop]

Well, I can sure appreciate your logic in terms of the follow imparting some reverse to the carom ball, but perhaps if in fact enough can be imparted, it is negated by the CBs extra contact time due to the follow. I sure don't know about all that, but I feel pretty confident that the amount if any would not be enough to warrant practical use.

As I mentioned, in situations where interfering balls come close to the path of the carom, (even though the pocket opening provides some room for breathing) I use some follow specifically to insure the true tangent path. I've never really witnessed the carom ball pulling back.

I'm sure Bob Jewett knows the physics of this specifically. Lets see what he has to say. If he misses this, I'll post a new thread to his attention.

Bob ... ya out there?

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I'm sure Bob Jewett knows the physics of this specifically. Lets see what he has to say. I ...

I think physics itself is silent on this point. Whether you can make a frozen ball back up with follow on the cue ball probably depends on the friction and elasticity of the balls. I think there is a set of properties that could get a ball to pull back from a tangent line.

Practically, the observation is that the ball never does back up unless there are additional balls backing up the squoze ball and then it's not clear how much effect the follow on the cue ball has. Byrne has some examples of such rare situations in one or two of his books.

The easy test, which I haven't actually done IIRC, is to put a ball on the center spot and freeze a ball to it also on the long string and see what part of the side pocket you can drive the center-spot ball into. I suppose you should also try a little moisture between the spotted balls and some chalk at the cue ball's contact point. Also, you should try some space between the two object balls so the effect seen in the "ten times fuller" system doesn't come in.