Showman vs Wayne

Mr. Bond said:
That 'other' conversation betwixt Johnbo and TW was very ...um...enlightening.

Something was mentioned during the round-table discussion (about "the future" of cue making) that I thought was very interesting, in part because of the somewhat vague responses that I can recall...

I was intrigued enough that I was actually discussing it with Mr Herceck at the WCCS last week...

My question goes something like this:

Do you create a new (cue) design based on what you alone perceive as a "good design"? ( who cares what the general public likes or doesn't like)

Or-

Do you create a design based solely on what you think will be popular, trendy, or for whatever reason, acceptable or liked by john q public?



If your answer is the second response^, does it not basically remove the freedom of creating a truly original piece of work, because you are automatically forced to work within a given set of parameters? Doesn't your work become 'commissioned' rather than inspired?

All thoughts are welcomed.
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Very interesting point. It's no secret that our sport/past-time is based on tradition. If a cuemaker wanted to come up with only new & unusual designs (i.e. just cue designs that are a stark, clear departure from traditional styling altogether) and only offer those for sale to the general public, they might find it difficult to remain in business very long, imo.

I think the "future" is in the details....i.e. new and innovative methods and materials, interesting takes on popular styles/elements, "twists" you might say, etc....not artsy-fartsy cues, per se.

If by "future", one means just relevant or pertaining to a dozen or so ultra-rich collectors that might be the ones buying these art cues, I would say that's not the mainstream market, and never will be.
 
cueaddicts said:
Very interesting point. It's no secret that our sport/past-time is based on tradition. If a cuemaker wanted to come up with only new & unusual designs (i.e. just cue designs that are a stark, clear departure from traditional styling altogether) and only offer those for sale to the general public, they might find it difficult to remain in business very long, imo.

I think the "future" is in the details....i.e. new and innovative methods and materials, interesting takes on popular styles/elements, "twists" you might say, etc....not artsy-fartsy cues, per se.

If by "future", one means just relevant or pertaining to a dozen or so ultra-rich collectors that might be the ones buying these art cues, I would say that's not the mainstream market, and never will be.
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"Very well stated'
I can't speak for TW,
BUT
I bet John has PLENTY To do in the way of His traditional styled cues that
will keep Him busy for A Long Time,
WITHOUT ANY NEW BUSINESS"
 
Most of the cue makers I’ve done business with cater to both the player and the collector. There will always be both to consider as long as pool is still being played somewhere. Do you think one is going away? If you look at those cue makers who have ventured beyond the tradition, you’ll see only those makers that have become relatively secure in their trade. I believe most if not all had started out at one time making player cues with a fairly straight forward design. Having yet to establish a name or reputation in the industry, they sort of paid their dues. I’ve mentioned my favorite makers either in this thread or elsewhere, not sure anymore, but I believe all started relatively small and kept design within proven parameters. If you have the talent to excel and grow in your trade, I think it is fair to assume that you’ll eventually at least dabble with new art and design. It seems to be a natural transition given the tools available to them these days. How far you fall to the side of self-expression is really up to the individual maker. Not ever maker can do that. Those that can aren’t starving as far as I know. There is no place for trend cues, at least long term. Traditional design will always be around. But I do believe what we are seeing in design creativity is only going to grow and become more accepted.
 
I'd rather undergo the experience of commissioning a cue (I think) to be built by John. However, when it comes down to aesthetics I can think of at least 5 cues I've seen from Thomas that are as good as they come, poetry in wood. I've never played with either so choosing TW is based solely on the beauty he is capable of crafting.

todd
 
lenoxmjs said:
For me its all about the personality first. The cue second. So based on that I'll never own a TW cue.
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There's not a many leading edge, innovative cue makers that are not cocky and opinionated. Sure, if you're nice to them and stay away from technical discussions about cue making you will see their casual side. But, start talking about 5 minute epoxy and a shouting match with insults will likely arise. Much like a discussion about aiming systems among top pool players.

So don't mistaken their arguing skills with their personality. There are only a few cue makers that will not teach a prying, novice cue maker a trick or two (and there are many tricks). It has been my experience that all cue makers that I have met are very like-able and enjoyable to be around. But, they do have certain intangible trait about finding answers that make them unique. This trait is also essential problem solving and successful cue making.

And BTW, Thomas Wayne and John Showman are among the top cue makers that keep no secrets. They both give their knowledge freely and have shared as much of their experience as any. They rank up there with the likes of Hightower and Dieckmann for their love of teaching.
 
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cueaddicts said:
Very interesting point. It's no secret that our sport/past-time is based on tradition. If a cuemaker wanted to come up with only new & unusual designs (i.e. just cue designs that are a stark, clear departure from traditional styling altogether) and only offer those for sale to the general public, they might find it difficult to remain in business very long, imo.

I think the "future" is in the details....i.e. new and innovative methods and materials, interesting takes on popular styles/elements, "twists" you might say, etc....not artsy-fartsy cues, per se.

If by "future", one means just relevant or pertaining to a dozen or so ultra-rich collectors that might be the ones buying these art cues, I would say that's not the mainstream market, and never will be.
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This is a among the best of discussions out there. I believe that if cue makers only created their own works and then sold those cues after being built, it would benefit the industry greatly.
1- They can be free to show their innovative ideas freely, as you mentioned.
2- They would maintain their own processes and make their cues more unique to them. Meaning people would be less likely to mistaken their cue with someone else's. This applies to both aesthetic design and performance. They may be more likely to adhere to similar hit among all their cues.
3- The industry, as a whole, would benefit by not having people complain about not receiving their cue in two months or not receiving what they asked for. The time problem often arises because a CM'er runs into problems outside or even sometimes inside of his realm of control. Processes are complicated and many CM'ers will not allow anything out of their shop that compromises their whole body of work. If they do not like how a cue ends up, they may start the whole process over. The other problem arises because their idea and the CM'er idea is only perfect in their minds and any fabrication of that idea is going to flawed (first question among all artists). And likelihood of two minds seeing even a basic chair exactly the same is impossible because we are all unique.
 
Well, I just read TW's (abhorrent) comments toward Showman & it is 100% safe to say that you'll never see a TW cue in my hands.
 
Based on the builder's "style" I prefer Showman cues. I think Showman cues are supreme within the confines of the traditional style and I also think they play among the best cues available...but...

Your original question offers the choice of "any" cue though and that puts this opportunity into a different light.

TW has the edge on creativity in my opinion. His designs are almost without border or limitation. His talent with radical construction method and range of inspiration stand alone. Wayne has built cues with a complexity that I doubt I will ever see from the Showman shop. TW has earned that recognition from me.

In the end, it comes down to one's reason to collect cues and perhaps the style of cue one prefers. For some, cuemaker personality matters and for others it is about the investment. Design and playability also lend themselves to one maker or the other. So the correct answer is unique to each collector...what others think doesn't really matter if you know what you like.
 
Here's a thread someone pointed me to.
http://www.jimboarmy.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7952&start=60

Selected highlight:

Of course, if even marginally true it could just come down to the "law of the jungle"...
you know, where the gazelle knows better than to slink up to the watering hole while the lions are taking a drink.

Some gazelles do, however, seem to have the gall to come to the event as "guests", with - surprise, surprise -
a "cue to deliver to a customer", in a sleazy, thinly veiled effort to show their work without having been
invited to do so (and without paying the exhibitor fee).

TW
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And some gazelles seem to have the gall to show sloppy or should i say lack of crafsmanship.

Johnbo
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And some gazelles are grotesquely fat lazy sacks of shit with no creative skills and zero artistic imagination, lacking the ability to contribute anything of value to such a discussion.

TW
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Well THAT escalated quickly.

If Johnbo is the guy who posted the apology thread, I'm a little surprised. If anything he's the one
owed an apology.
 
It's just ongoing gamesmanship played by both. IMO, no apology was ever really intended. This whole BS thread here was started to help someone fan the flames on the other discussion forum. You'd have to read everything from start to finish over on that forum to even begin to understand it. No clear winner or loser. Quite an amusing read if you have the patience. In the end, everyone goes back to making and selling great cues and these threads get archived and forgotten.

Paul
 
Walkermine said:
... This whole BS thread here was started to help someone fan the flames on the other discussion forum. ....
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That's how I see it too. You learn a bit about AZ posters when they start threads like this.

Dave
 
I played in a tournament this past weekend. We had 17 players, which was a nice showing for our league (yea, I know.....I wish participation was better). :o

Anyway, there was a table where people were laying their cues up in a line, as pretty much everyone trusted everyone there.

Besides my Gary Johnson custom.....one cue really popped out at me. I gingerly rolled it over and it was a "Thomas Wayne".

I've only heard of Thomas' work a bit on this ,and I only read the 1st page of this thread so far, as I'm at work and I can't dally right now. But, anywho, the owner happened to walk over to start his match and just smiled.

I said, "A Thomas Wayne. Heard of him, but never seen one till today. It's very nice and traditional-looking. I really like it. How does it play?"

He said that he bought years upon years ago and that it was a ver early 90's model (can't remember if he was the original owner or not), but told me that he loved it.

He ended up placing 4th and cashing. Now that I think about it.....it was a handicapped tourney and the guy looked a lil bit underrated. He could wield that Thomas Wayne pretty well.

Next time I see him, I think I'll ask him if I can hit with it once or twice. I normally NEVER do that, but for this one, I might make an exception. Very classy looking piece.

If I like how it hits, I might ask him how much he'd take for it......just to see what he says.
 
fathomblue said:
I played in a tournament this past weekend. We had 17 players, which was a nice showing for our league (yea, I know.....I wish participation was better). :o

Anyway, there was a table where people were laying their cues up in a line, as pretty much everyone trusted everyone there.

Besides my Gary Johnson custom.....one cue really popped out at me. I gingerly rolled it over and it was a "Thomas Wayne".

I've only heard of Thomas' work a bit on this ,and I only read the 1st page of this thread so far, as I'm at work and I can't dally right now. But, anywho, the owner happened to walk over to start his match and just smiled.

I said, "A Thomas Wayne. Heard of him, but never seen one till today. It's very nice and traditional-looking. I really like it. How does it play?"

He said that he bought years upon years ago and that it was a ver early 90's model (can't remember if he was the original owner or not), but told me that he loved it.

He ended up placing 4th and cashing. Now that I think about it.....it was a handicapped tourney and the guy looked a lil bit underrated. He could wield that Thomas Wayne pretty well.

Next time I see him, I think I'll ask him if I can hit with it once or twice. I normally NEVER do that, but for this one, I might make an exception. Very classy looking piece.

If I like how it hits, I might ask him how much he'd take for it......just to see what he says.
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a guy in one of my leagues has a fancy bushka styled richard black. i would love to have.

i have asked him a dozen times ... how much ? he just won't sell it .:(
 
Thomas Wayne's playability

I'm not voting for either, because I haven't had the pleasure of hitting balls with a Showman yet. I did purchase a nice Thomas Wayne players cue that I received in the mail today. This Thomas Wayne plays fantastic and I love the look. This isn't one of his fancy art cues, but it matches my taste perfectly. 8 points up and 8 points down. Here's a link if you want to check it out. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=338702

I hope to try or buy a Showman ASAP, but they're hard to come by.
 
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