Side spin does not transfer

pete lafond

pete lafond

pete.l@slipstic.com
Silver Member
There was an earlier post were I made a comment about side spin not transferring from CB to OB. I couldn't find it and remember several players and instructors attempted to say I was incorrect. This has bugged me but I didn't have a chance to respond.

My statement was clearly that hitting the CB directly (straight line not angle cut) into an OB with right hand English will not cause the OB to have left hand English. Can not happen. I was told many years ago by Babe Cranfield that this also does not happen and I remember him stating that left or right English will cause the OB to twist instead, there is no side english transfer.

Needless to say, even though I believed this, I felt it deserved a test. The results were accurate. Right English did not transfer left English, nor the reverse. The OB did twist. So as I stated the only way the CB can cause an OB to spin left or right is through contact on an angle. Many times when players hit left or right English, the CB curves enough to create an angle which is contact induced.
 
yep, this will set off a argument but i agree with you. I always thought that the english transfers, and i think in very limited situations with extremely dirty balls (lol) there is a very very slight gear effect but for the most part no....left spin on the cueball doesnt put right on the object ball, they are smooth surfaces and they arent in contact long enough to transfer that kind of spin.
 
I hope you are kidding. I guess you guys have never banked a ball before with english. Another good one I heard on this board was that there is no swerve when hitting straight left or right english, only with high or low english. I think you guys should go retest these theories.
 
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don't play any good bankers bank pool if you think that

pete lafond said:
There was an earlier post were I made a comment about side spin not transferring from CB to OB. I couldn't find it and remember several players and instructors attempted to say I was incorrect. This has bugged me but I didn't have a chance to respond.

My statement was clearly that hitting the CB directly (straight line not angle cut) into an OB with right hand English will not cause the OB to have left hand English. Can not happen. I was told many years ago by Babe Cranfield that this also does not happen and I remember him stating that left or right English will cause the OB to twist instead, there is no side english transfer.

Needless to say, even though I believed this, I felt it deserved a test. The results were accurate. Right English did not transfer left English, nor the reverse. The OB did twist. So as I stated the only way the CB can cause an OB to spin left or right is through contact on an angle. Many times when players hit left or right English, the CB curves enough to create an angle which is contact induced.
Click to expand...

man, i always thought your posts were very thoughtful in the past. this one is bad. i bet you're not a very good banker if you don't understand this concept (nothing personal, just a guess). not sure exactly what you mean by twist, doesn't a "twisting" ball have english?

there are many, many one pocket banks that can only be made by hitting a full ball and "englishing" the ob into the pocket. just set up a shot strait into the rail, make sure the object ball is say about a foot from the rail, shoot strait into the object ball with right english and the ob will act as though it has left english when it hits the cushion (not very much left mind you, but there will be some). if it had no english it would just come strait back into the object ball, but you will see it go to the left, i'd bet my last dollar on it. try as best you can to take throw out of the equation by htting the ob slightly to the left if using right english, hope that's not too confusing.

if you are unsatisfied with the above proof for whatever reason, set up a strait in frozen combination. depending on how far the second object ball is from the pocket, you can throw it out of the pocket by using left (will throw the second object ball to the left) or right (will throw the second object ball to the right). if you don't already understand, this is because whe you put left on the cb, it puts right on the first ob in the combo, and subsequently the second object ball gets thrown to the left. this proves that the first object ball is aquiring english.

in summary, this is one of those things that really isn't all that "argueable." another thought of mine, it's always amazing to me the "results" people can get when they already have a certian thought in mind. i'm not saying i'm any better, but it just seems as though we see what we want to see, or see what we think we should see.
 
De Ja Vu.... or how ever you spell it

Friction...

most don't even think about it, ones who get better do.

There's 4 contact points where Friction is a key variable, during a shot.

1. Cue stick to cue ball
2. Cue ball to table
3. Cue ball to Object ball
4. Rail to all the above.

Seems obvious, but I thought it worth mentioning.

Thanks for letting me.
 
I'll agree with the bankers. Hit a OB straight into a rail with english and see what happens.

I am certain spin is transfered. It has to. No way around it. Its physics...
 
Pete - try this bank. Line up the cueball and an object ball in the middle of the table as if you are shooting the object ball in a straight in shot in the side pocket. Hit it with right english and maybe cut it just slightly to the right of the pocket so it doesn't get thrown in and the ball will cross bank in the other side pocket. This is only possible due to transfer of spin.
 
I've noticed that on some tables it's way more obvious (on banks) than on others. This might lead to some "failed experiments".
 
object ball english transfer

has anybody(else) seen the jim rempe video (Power pool, advanced techniques / Ardent Video Publishing) that shows a fine shot: i think three rails with the ob going from side to side of a table,, no more than 6" or so from side pockets with english making the bal move pretty wild. great shot! shot starts on one side of center of table with reference to a line from side pocket to side pocket. start on right side of table, ob goes to right side then left of center line then right of center line and then back into a side pocket. got to see it to believe it.
 
mnShooter said:
I hope you are kidding. I guess you guys have never banked a ball before with english. Another good one I heard on this board was that there is no swerve when hitting straight left or right english, only with high or low english. Complete rubbish. Ignorance is bliss.
Click to expand...

RE: Sidespin causing swerve

I'm tired of people jumping in threads, calling everybody ignorant and then when confronted with proof, they are nowhere to be found. I posted that about the sidespin, you jumped my sh*t, I cited my sources and *poof* you were gone.

Here's a recent post where Bob Jewett discusses this and seems to be saying the same thing I was:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=311543&postcount=37

I'd be interested in hearing about the tests you've done to convince yourself that pure sidespin causes CB swerve. I'm happy to debate it, but drive-by postings that call everybody ignorant are not cool.

I qualified it after your post saying that there will be tiny (i.e. not observable) amounts of swerve, with pure side, but not relevant for the discussion we were talking about at the time.

As for the english being transferred to the OB, I haven't tested that, but my experience tells me that I can transfer english to the OB, the key is that more english is transferred on slower shots. If you're testing with medium speed shots, you won't notice too much of an effect.

Cheers,
RC
 
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If you don't believe that spin is transferred to the object ball, then place an object ball on the spot. Place the cue ball directly behind it, and two other balls on each side of the cue ball as well. Cut banking the ball will not work, because you will touch the balls that are on either side. Using extreme right or left english, you can transfer enough spin on the object ball to allow it to long rail bank back in either pocket.
 
Call it whatever you want, but sidespin will cause the CB to swerve and will have an affect on the OB.

At a very slow or high speed it is barely worth noting, but if at medium speed (especially with top or bottom) it is quite noticable. Then naturally if you elevate the butt at any speed it will also increase the swerve.

As far as CB - OB transfer, please take note of those posting about banking. No, the trasfer is not a direct horizontal spin as the case may be with center left or center right, because the OB immediately begins a forward roll, thus creating a twisting affect.

Again, call it what you want -Twist, Side, but sidespin on the CB definitely transers to the OB.
 
I agree with the bankers. You can transfer some spin from the CB to the OB and throw a bank shot one way or the other.

As a case in point, I had the shot below on the eight ball in a league match last week. I could not cut it without hitting my opponents ball first so shot it straight into the rail with exteme left middle ball English. Shot easy and the eight ball rebounded from the rail to the right and banked across to the opposite side pocket. Either spin was transferred or some mystical force intervened.

START(
%DT5M9%HU9M7%PV0R2%WV2D0%XV0L7%Y[4Z5%ZV2C0%eA2a2

)END

There are several teaching examples of this. Grady Matthew's Banking and Safety Play Video shows several techniques for using spin transfer to accomplish otherwise impossible bank shots.
 
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enzo said:
man, i always thought your posts were very thoughtful in the past. this one is bad. i bet you're not a very good banker if you don't understand this concept (nothing personal, just a guess). not sure exactly what you mean by twist, doesn't a "twisting" ball have english?

there are many, many one pocket banks that can only be made by hitting a full ball and "englishing" the ob into the pocket. just set up a shot strait into the rail, make sure the object ball is say about a foot from the rail, shoot strait into the object ball with right english and the ob will act as though it has left english when it hits the cushion (not very much left mind you, but there will be some). if it had no english it would just come strait back into the object ball, but you will see it go to the left, i'd bet my last dollar on it. try as best you can to take throw out of the equation by htting the ob slightly to the left if using right english, hope that's not too confusing.

if you are unsatisfied with the above proof for whatever reason, set up a strait in frozen combination. depending on how far the second object ball is from the pocket, you can throw it out of the pocket by using left (will throw the second object ball to the left) or right (will throw the second object ball to the right). if you don't already understand, this is because whe you put left on the cb, it puts right on the first ob in the combo, and subsequently the second object ball gets thrown to the left. this proves that the first object ball is aquiring english.

in summary, this is one of those things that really isn't all that "argueable." another thought of mine, it's always amazing to me the "results" people can get when they already have a certian thought in mind. i'm not saying i'm any better, but it just seems as though we see what we want to see, or see what we think we should see.
Click to expand...

Actually what you are seeing is collision induced throw, not spin induced throw. You are right that you can transfer side to an object ball, but with frozen combinations most people agree that you can't.
 
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I'll explain

Yes if you are a good banker you should know that this transfer does not occur, otherwise the OB will travel longer off the rail on a bank when outside English is applied. It just doesn't.

Each time the CB hits an OB directly the OB reacts in some way as a result of the spin on the CB and the friction on the felt. This is not a transfer, rather an effect. Once that reaction takes place, the OB ball always rolls forward (forced) with forward spin of some type. Eventually the OB will have only top spin (assuming a rail or another collision does not occur). In the case of left and right spin, the OB gets twisted in a forward motion to cause the OB to have an effect of top right or top left. But never a transfer.

Please see my poor graphics example;
 

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I think SideSpin Does Transfer from the QB to the OB......

Try this with (2) Stripped Balls, one be the Qb that is HT with Extreme (R) or (L), and see if the Spin Transfers.

LAST REMEMBER:

Pool is a Game of Opposites

Also GEAR EFFECT
















I rest my case, and let the Jury Decide.... :)
 
PoolSleuth said:
I think SideSpin Does Transfer from the QB to the OB......

Try this with (2) Stripped Balls, one be the Qb that is HT with Extreme (R) or (L), and see if the Spin Transfers.

LAST REMEMBER:

Pool is a Game of Opposites

Also GEAR EFFECT

I rest my case, and let the Jury Decide.... :)
Click to expand...

Try this; Align a stripe ball so that the stripe is sideways. Hit the CB into it directly with left spin. You should see the stripe going diagonally and not sideways. The effect is a twist that occurs as a result of the CB spin and the OB against the felt.
 
confusion

I'm just a dumb ass but I think there is some confusion between the throw effect that is put on the ob with cb sidespin and if spin is actually put on the ball. My opinion is that there is a little side spin put on the ball with extreme cue ball english but it is not much. The bank demonstration proves that it can happen. but most of what is happening is the throw from the collision having an effect on the object ball. I think it would be impossible to hit the cue ball with right spin and not have it transfer a minute amount of spin on the object ball, not enough effect it majorly but enough to effect how it then comes off another ball or a rail.....JMO
 
pete lafond said:
Yes if you are a good banker you should know that this transfer does not occur, otherwise the OB will travel longer off the rail on a bank when outside English is applied. It just doesn't.
Click to expand...

The OB DOES travel longer off the rail on a bank when outside english is applied! Line it up and try it!

pete lafond said:
Each time the CB hits an OB directly the OB reacts in some way as a result of the spin on the CB and the friction on the felt. This is not a transfer, rather an effect. Once that reaction takes place, the OB ball always rolls forward (forced) with forward spin of some type. Eventually the OB will have only top spin (assuming a rail or another collision does not occur). In the case of left and right spin, the OB gets twisted in a forward motion to cause the OB to have an effect of top right or top left. But never a transfer.
Click to expand...

So what you're saying is the OB will travel forward with top spin AND some side spin, right? This always happens with a side-spinning ball, whether it's the OB after a side-spinning CB hits it, or whether it's the CB after an off-center cue tip hits it. If there's any sideways component to the spin on the OB at all, it was put there by the CB. Sometimes this sideways component comes from a non-full hit, and sometimes it comes from a spinning CB spinning the OB in a gear effect. Either way, the CB spins the OB. "Twist" and "spin" are not different in this context, and I fail to see what distinction you're trying to make between those two things. And if there's spin on the OB, it was "transferred" there from something. All kinetic energy of any object is transferred to the object from something, and on a pool table, the CB is the only source it could have come from.

-Andrew
 
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