Simonis 860 vs.860HR vs. 760

Rich93

Rich93

A Small Time Charlie
Silver Member
I'll have the opportunity soon to recover my table and I need to choose the best cloth for straight pool. From slowest to fastest, the choices are 860, 860HR and 760. There was a thread on this about 6 months ago but it seemed to end in a split decision. Any new thoughts?

The Simonis website seems to recommend 760 for straight pool. It says 860 was developed specifically for 9-ball. 860HR is supposed to be a little faster than 860.
 
Rich93 said:
I'll have the opportunity soon to recover my table and I need to choose the best cloth for straight pool. From slowest to fastest, the choices are 860, 860HR and 760. There was a thread on this about 6 months ago but it seemed to end in a split decision. Any new thoughts?

The Simonis website seems to recommend 760 for straight pool. It says 860 was developed specifically for 9-ball. 860HR is supposed to be a little faster than 860.
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14.1 is my favorite game, and the only cloth I would go with is 760. The 860 seems too slow. Straight Pool is a game of finesse. You want a fast cloth. Just my $0.02! ;)
 
I don't much about this stuff but I've always found 760 to be fairly unplayable for all games.
 
Steve Lipsky said:
I don't much about this stuff but I've always found 760 to be fairly unplayable for all games.
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Wow, Steve! I've never heard it put quite like that! LOL!

I'm curious. In what way(s) do you find 760 "unplayable"?

I've heard many players,(mostly bar-box shooters), complain of it's speed, because they are not used to it, but what other factors contribute to your view of 760? :shrug:
 
Do you consider another cloths such Z9? I can highly recommend it. Plays like 860, but its much more durable and playable. Take a look at this.
 
14oneman said:
Wow, Steve! I've never heard it put quite like that! LOL!

I'm curious. In what way(s) do you find 760 "unplayable"?

I've heard many players,(mostly bar-box shooters), complain of it's speed, because they are not used to it, but what other factors contribute to your view of 760? :shrug:
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I should preface this by saying that the last time I know I was playing on 760 was probably ten years ago. Things surely may have changed. Also, I have no idea what I'm playing on now, but it's Simonis and I don't hate it so I assume it's 860. Don't know about this new HR business.

So... based on my decade-old impression of 760, I can just say that the stuff was too fast to play with any finesse at all. On cut shots you'd always have to add a rail to your position play, because holding the cueball was never an option. I never considered 860 slow at all, but the case can easily be made that you could always hit a ball harder (if you had to) on a slower cloth, but you can't necessarily hit a ball easier on fast cloth. There's a lower limit on the speed necessary to pocket an object ball, and on 760 sometimes this lower limit was still too fast.

Just my opinion...

- Steve
 
I'm with Dr. Lipsky. If you want an experience closer to old-time straight pool; where the balls don't just fall apart when you breathe on them, and where the ball doesn't roll forever if you tap it; then 860 is the answer.

I do not like the 760 for 14.1 (have played on 760 many times; have 860 at home) or any other game; 860 is just about right for all games. I really wish Simonis would make a high grade worsted cloth even slower than the 860; that would put a bit more skill back into pool.

Jimmy Rempe is often heard to lament that he spent his whole life developing a precise and powerful stroke to move the ball around, and break clusters on the old, slower cloth; then they switched to the faster Simonis 860, and he didn't need that stroke anymore - and players with lesser strokes can do just as well.

Having said all of that, at least one straight pool afficionado (mark Wilson) prefers the 760; so there you go. Matter of opinion. When I recover my table (and I basically only play straight pool), it will be 860.
 
Williebetmore said:
I'm with Dr. Lipsky. If you want an experience closer to old-time straight pool; where the balls don't just fall apart when you breathe on them, and where the ball doesn't roll forever if you tap it; then 860 is the answer.

I do not like the 760 for 14.1 (have played on 760 many times; have 860 at home) or any other game; 860 is just about right for all games. I really wish Simonis would make a high grade worsted cloth even slower than the 860; that would put a bit more skill back into pool.

Jimmy Rempe is often heard to lament that he spent his whole life developing a precise and powerful stroke to move the ball around, and break clusters on the old, slower cloth; then they switched to the faster Simonis 860, and he didn't need that stroke anymore - and players with lesser strokes can do just as well.

Having said all of that, at least one straight pool afficionado (mark Wilson) prefers the 760; so there you go. Matter of opinion. When I recover my table (and I basically only play straight pool), it will be 860.
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Willie,

I do agree with you, in that the "old days", (I started playing the early 60's), that the cloth was much slower. I'm not sure that speed of cloth equates to skill. Both types of cloth take skill, just a different approach to stroke, which you already mentioned.

I guess I've grown to like the faster cloth. When I play on the slower stuff, I feel like I'm trying to move balls on indoor-outdoor carpeting! LOL!

Oh well, different strokes for different folks! (Pun intended!) ;)
 
In my googling on this subject, I turned up the following quote (it was part of a much longer diatribe on how tables have changed):

Prior to WWII the first half of the 20th century was
played on Simonis #1 which is equal in speed to 760 today. WWII
stopped the imports of simonis into the USA and we entered into the
slow period I call it. We were on this slow Mali type house cloth in
the 50's-60's-70's to the early 80's. Dufferin began to import
it back in and we were back playing on the much faster 760. Today, the
world plays on 760 and prefers it. Only in American is 860 used more.


The writer then goes on to blame Diamond for getting Simonis to develop 860. He said it was to make jump shots easier (we know that's at least part of the reason).

If true, it's interesting that prior to WWII (when straight pool was straight pool!) the cloth used was similar to 760.

At the risk of alienating the forum, I should admit that the writer I'm quoting is Fast Larry.
 
Rich93 said:
In my googling on this subject, I turned up the following quote (it was part of a much longer diatribe on how tables have changed):

Prior to WWII the first half of the 20th century was
played on Simonis #1 which is equal in speed to 760 today. WWII
stopped the imports of simonis into the USA and we entered into the
slow period I call it. We were on this slow Mali type house cloth in
the 50's-60's-70's to the early 80's. Dufferin began to import
it back in and we were back playing on the much faster 760. Today, the
world plays on 760 and prefers it. Only in American is 860 used more.


The writer then goes on to blame Diamond for getting Simonis to develop 860. He said it was to make jump shots easier (we know that's at least part of the reason).

If true, it's interesting that prior to WWII (when straight pool was straight pool!) the cloth used was similar to 760.

At the risk of alienating the forum, I should admit that the writer I'm quoting is Fast Larry.
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It's very hard to understand this particular author. I'm very skeptical.

As early as the 1930's (according to my father); the pool cloth was slow, and the billiard cloth was fast (Chicago, Kansas City, Texas). This may certainly have varied by manufacturer, and locale. Your author is grossly oversimplifying.
 
Williebetmore said:
It's very hard to understand this particular author. I'm very skeptical.

As early as the 1930's (according to my father); the pool cloth was slow, and the billiard cloth was fast (Chicago, Kansas City, Texas). This may certainly have varied by manufacturer, and locale. Your author is grossly oversimplifying.
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I agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense. Given how Brunswick dominated the game in those days, I would think that poolrooms used whatever Brunswick was selling. We need somebody like Mike Shamos to answer this question.
 
Here's what Simonis says:

When I bought my table two years ago, I emailed Simonis asking what cloth they would recommend for someone who liked to play 14.1. I got a thorough reply from the company president, which I have unfortunately deleted. The thrust of it was a recommendation for 760. As I recall, the idea was that 860 would start out acceptably fast and then slow down as time passed. 760, he said, would stay fast.

For reasons I can't explain, I ignored the Simonis advice in favor of the Brunswick dealer's 860 recommendation. Now, two years later, it does seem to me that the balls don't open very well. Maybe I'm not keeping the table as clean as I possibly could, and probably the balls need a good polish, but the table does seem a little slow to me...

I would recommend asking the Simonis people -- they were very helpful...

Brian
 
I have 760 on my GCIII and all I play is straight pool. The reason I chose the 760 is because although it is in my basement with a dehumidifier in the summer time, I felt that the 760 in an unairconditioned space would play closer to 860 in an air conditioned pool room. ( Of course I also assumed most pool rooms used the 860)

That being said, I do find it easier to play tight position when the CB is in the center of opened balls and I'm working around close quarters with the 860.

I'm more confident that I'm not going to get an extra rotation on the CB unexpectedly. The same holds true on shots like a hanging OB in an upper corner pocket where the CB has to travel up stream and back down stream after pocketing that ball. I feel I have more control over those last few rotations of the CB with the 860.

Ideally I would like a cloth faster than 860 but a tad slower than my 760. Fussy ba%$@d I know ... :)

I've read that the 860HR is faster than standard 860, but I don't know if it is really true, if it really says faster as it wears and how much faster it actually is than the 860.

I suppose, all in all, and with the fact that I do enjoy certain characteristics of the 860 for 14.1, without the benefit of actually playing on the HR, I'd have to opt for the 760 again when my table needs to be redone simply because it's too costly to experiment. :(
 
Tiger91 said:
When I bought my table two years ago, I emailed Simonis asking what cloth they would recommend for someone who liked to play 14.1. I got a thorough reply from the company president, which I have unfortunately deleted. The thrust of it was a recommendation for 760. As I recall, the idea was that 860 would start out acceptably fast and then slow down as time passed. 760, he said, would stay fast.

For reasons I can't explain, I ignored the Simonis advice in favor of the Brunswick dealer's 860 recommendation. Now, two years later, it does seem to me that the balls don't open very well. Maybe I'm not keeping the table as clean as I possibly could, and probably the balls need a good polish, but the table does seem a little slow to me...

I would recommend asking the Simonis people -- they were very helpful...

Brian
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I did email Simonis and didn't get a straight answer, but then I didn't get through to the company president. What he said about 860 slowing up over time has been my experience, though I thought I might have abused the cloth by vacuuming with a rotating brush, brushing too hard, etc. For whatever reason, my 860 is quite a bit slower than when it was first put on. When it was new, my first draw shot caused me to say "Whoah!".

I PM'ed realkingcobra and asked his opinion, and he said 760 was best for straight pool (also said his high run was 163). Dartman, who sells a lot of cloth, also favored 760 though not as unequivocally.

760 is probably best for high runs because break shots will open the balls better. But the issue I have a hard time with is that the world now uses 860. I imagine, but do not know, that even the few 14.1 tournaments for pros use 860. Do I really want something different on my practice table?

860HR is supposed to be a bit faster than 860 and might be a good compromise.

Thanks for the replies.
 
Well, my opinion on the matter is no better than anyone else's but for me 760 is the way to go. I've been playing the better part of 25 years now and for myself 860 is like playing on carpet. Pool is not a game that needs power. As for it seeming slower many years ago but Brunswick saying the cloth was similar to the 760, don't forget that they played with the old mud balls and probably didn't pull the cloth as tight.

As for the question at hand, it's entirely up to you. If you want the most action with the least resistence then go with the 760. If you want to let your stroke out on your break shots then go with the 860.
MULLY
 
just my 0.02c

Ive had 860 for 1.5y on my diamond pro, and after the first 6 months it started to slow down, to being really TO slow. The cloth is stretched close to max, and well placed.

I'm going to put 760 without a doubt next time i recover it.

PS: i live in europe, and every tournament and good poolhall has 760 on them, so i need 760 at home to , so i won't have to addapt to faster cloth every time i play in a tournament.

760 is the way to go imho
 
Solartje said:
PS: i live in europe, and every tournament and good poolhall has 760 on them, so i need 760 at home to , so i won't have to addapt to faster cloth every time i play in a tournament.

760 is the way to go imho
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I'm in Japan and about 2 years ago there seemed to be a huge turn to the 860. I'm in a position where I have to play on 860 now but on the occasion where I can get on a table with 760 I find that I adjust to it really quickly and then have a helluva time getting in stroke again when I get back to 860. If it was up to me all tables would have 760 on them.
MULLY
I like a fast table
 
I have a GC 4 in my basement and I have 860 on it that's pushing 3 years old. I'm not a good 14.1 player (high run 27 going for 30) but I practice the game a lot. For comparison sake there is a local pool hall with a GC that has 760 on it and I like to play 14.1 on the 760 table better because the breakshots provide better results. To me it seems more difficult to move balls on the 860 and even many position shots require a harder hit and I think that can reduce accuracy. I've tried every different breakshot I can think of on the 860 and it's very difficult to come out without balls clustered together tightly in the rack area. If I really clean the table well and polish the balls it helps but if I had to do it over I would go with the 760.

It may make less of a difference to a super accurate professional player with a great stroke but at my level I want to get some satisfaction out of the game and run a few balls so I will take any advantage I can get within reason. All things being equal I will take a faster table over a slower one.
 
Meaning of '860'/'760'?

What do those numbers mean? I'm pretty sure that I play on '860' at my local rooms (no 14.1-just the other rotation games and a little 1P).

I am ignorant. Has it to do with a thread count per/some unit of measurement -like bed linens? I think? If so, wouldn't a higher number mean a tighter weave and result in a smoother, faster surface?

Obviously I'm just guessing-like I say, I'm ignorant.

It certainly makes sense to me that the speed of the cloth would affect how easily the balls would or wouldn't separate out of the rack. When I've seen you guys play - peeling a ball(s) off the rack or looking to spread them pretty well seems to come more from proper positioning than having to pound into the rack and risk missing due to overhitting the ob.

I regret not playing 14.1 early on-before taking up the other games. I see that the pattern play and accuracy required would pay dividends in any game. I didn't realize that the cloth speed might be such a limiting factor in playing good straight pool. Some of todays successful 14.1 players seem to hit em pretty crisp and just take what they get and get out from there with their shotmaking skills.

More than one way to get to Burbank? I like to watch your good patterns personally.

Thanks,
3railkick
 
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