Sinking the 8 early
- Thread starter Cameron Smith
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Jude really has nailed it well. 8 ball wouldn't be 8 ball with out this rule.Jude Rosenstock said:
To understand why pocketing the 8 early is loss of game, you must understand the game of 8-ball.
In 8-ball, each opponent establishes his/her group of balls to pocket. In BCA 8-ball, the 8-ball is not neutral and cannot be struck first to pocket a ball without incurring a foul. It may be used in a combination, however.
When a player has pocketed his/her group of balls, then the 8-ball becomes legal for that player to strike and pocket. So you see, until you have pocketed all your balls first, pocketing the 8-ball before it becomes your legal ball is loss of game.
Now if you're suggesting that pocketing the 8-ball early should just be considered just a foul, then you're changing the whole game and its strategy.
Barbara
In 8-ball, each opponent establishes his/her group of balls to pocket. In BCA 8-ball, the 8-ball is not neutral and cannot be struck first to pocket a ball without incurring a foul. It may be used in a combination, however.
When a player has pocketed his/her group of balls, then the 8-ball becomes legal for that player to strike and pocket. So you see, until you have pocketed all your balls first, pocketing the 8-ball before it becomes your legal ball is loss of game.
Now if you're suggesting that pocketing the 8-ball early should just be considered just a foul, then you're changing the whole game and its strategy.
Barbara
Just so you guys know where I am coming from, I lost a match on monday as a result of two impossible caroms onto the eight. I wasn't banging anything around, from the position of the eight ball nobody would have believed that it could have been pocketed anywhere unless I shot straight at it.
In short, I am sulking. STILL!
But I don't think that changing the rule to being a foul changes the game at all, except for the banger I suppose because ball in hand are nice for them but it doesn't amount to much in the end. However for the better players ball in hand is huge, especially in eight ball where it makes an unrunable table, runable. The strategy still exists, you still can nudge the eight ball near a pocket to force a foul. But you just don't get a quick easy win.
I would be willing to bet money (not really, just figuratively) that the rule was instituted with the inception of the bar box since you are unable respot balls. What else can you do? You can't say an early eight is a win, that wouldn't make any sense. So the obvious rule in that case is that an early eight is a lose, and everything follows from there.
Of course this is just guess work, but if I am right, it would make the rule unneccessary for a table in which you were able to pull balls out.
Just the opinion of a sulky pouting pool player.
In short, I am sulking. STILL!
But I don't think that changing the rule to being a foul changes the game at all, except for the banger I suppose because ball in hand are nice for them but it doesn't amount to much in the end. However for the better players ball in hand is huge, especially in eight ball where it makes an unrunable table, runable. The strategy still exists, you still can nudge the eight ball near a pocket to force a foul. But you just don't get a quick easy win.
I would be willing to bet money (not really, just figuratively) that the rule was instituted with the inception of the bar box since you are unable respot balls. What else can you do? You can't say an early eight is a win, that wouldn't make any sense. So the obvious rule in that case is that an early eight is a lose, and everything follows from there.
Of course this is just guess work, but if I am right, it would make the rule unneccessary for a table in which you were able to pull balls out.
Just the opinion of a sulky pouting pool player.
If the game was played without an 8-ball, just solids and stripes, most games would pretty much play out the same way as they do now.
Your last ball would act like the 8-ball. Miss it and you're in trouble.
I don't see too many games where the 8-ball is used as a kind of strategical chess piece to block balls and pockets. In fact when adopting these strategies we use our own balls much more. The 8-ball pretty much gets left alone unless it needs to be broken out of a cluster.
Your last ball would act like the 8-ball. Miss it and you're in trouble.
I don't see too many games where the 8-ball is used as a kind of strategical chess piece to block balls and pockets. In fact when adopting these strategies we use our own balls much more. The 8-ball pretty much gets left alone unless it needs to be broken out of a cluster.
Colin Colenso said:
I was just thinking that. I don't think I have ever seen anybody intentionally move the 8 around. But it is mainly 9 ball around where I am so maybe I am not looking hard enough. But I would think the inherent risks in such a strategy would be barely worth the reward. Besides at higher levels of the game, I don't think strategy really plays into the game much.
Colin Colenso said:
I don't agree at all. If there was no 8 ball, the you would never have the situation where both players were on the same legal ball at the same time trying to either make it or play safe from the other player.
Making the change suggested would have making an early 8 the same penalty as not getting a legal hit. I think they are not similar crimes. In the situation where a players ball was blocked from a hole by the 8, he could just go ahead and make the eight and only give up BIH. I think that changes the game dramatically.
One question. I have played 8 ball in many different places with many different sets of rules. Every league and bar seems to have a different set, but I have never played anywhere that an early 8 was not loss of game. Has anybody ever played under any set of rules (except maybe in a private home) where an early 8 was not loss of game?
I think the chances of having this rule changed are about the same and having the sun rise in the west.
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lewdo26 said:
My point was simply that the 8-ball doesn't make the game significantly different in strategy. Especially at the higher play levels where most games are finished on a run of balls. Rarely do we see tie up games, or two players battling for position on the 8-ball as last ball.
So by extension, getting rid of the early black and scratch on black loss rules, it would unlikely make much difference to the game.
btw: Just cause a rule has never been seen or tried doesn't mean it wouldn't work or improve a game. I recall the foul-snooker rule being introduced to English 8-ball worldwide, and it improved the game considerably.
Subsonic2u said:
True, in general, good players do not lose control of the balls, but everyone loses control at least once in a while. If Efren plays enough games of 8-ball, eventually he will slop an 8, although it might take him a million games to do that.
If a banger slops the 8 more often than a better player, it doesn't necessarily mean the rule favors the better player.
Say you are the better player playing a banger and over a long number of games you find that you win 10 games to his 1, on average. Assume that none of these games had this 8-ball rule come up. Now, for the 8-ball rule to favor you, the banger would need to slop the 8-ball more than 10-times as often as you. If you slop the 8 once for every 5 times he slops it, the rule gives him an advantage.
I like the way Colin put it, the punishment does not fit the crime. Same is true in 9-ball, in my opinion. When you slop the 9 early, often the reward does not fit the accomplishment, especially on the break.
That said, I can't say I'd vote to remove the 8-ball-slop-is-a-loss rule. It would take a lot of deliberation to decide one way or another. We should all go out and play a bunch of 8-ball with the rule changed to see if we like it.
It would take a while to get used to; it feels like its just part of the game.At least its not as harsh as some of the bar rules out there. In the bars I went to in Manhattan, they rule it a loss of game if you don't contact the 8-ball when you are on the 8.
I thought that was completely rediculous.I like the BCA version where a scratch on the 8 is not a loss as long as the 8 does not drop. If it drops on the break, give the breaker the option of spotting it or reracking. In my opinion, no game should last only 1 shot.
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phjunky
Registered
I don't agree on changing any rule. I think rules are pretty good like they are. And sinking the 8 soon in the game should remain as a lose for this player. You have to increase your skills to get more control of the balls instead of changing rules to advantage you. It's like if we said in 9ball, no combination with the 9... so the player who makes a combination 1-9 doesn't win and the 9 is respot. I don't think we should change any rule. If the game ends early, that's part of the game. It only gives you another reason to start another. 
But now, you can get some rules variations with your buddies.
But now, you can get some rules variations with your buddies.phjunky said:I don't agree on changing any rule. I think rules are pretty good like they are. And sinking the 8 soon in the game should remain as a lose for this player. You have to increase your skills to get more control of the balls instead of changing rules to advantage you. It's like if we said in 9ball, no combination with the 9... so the player who makes a combination 1-9 doesn't win and the 9 is respot. I don't think we should change any rule. If the game ends early, that's part of the game. It only gives you another reason to start another.
Just because a rule is in place doesn't mean that they aren't illogical. It does not take very much skill to avoid banging the 8 around, whenever it does drop it is due to, as I mentioned before, gross misfortune. The strategy of 8 ball would not change if the rule amended, you would still have to be careful around the 8. Who wants to give up ball in hand?
phjunky
Registered
I don't think that rule is illogical. The rule is if you sink the 8 before all your balls, you lose... this rule stands for the whole game... i mean, not only after having sink like 3 or 4 of our balls... But i know what you mean... i just don't think we should change that rule.
Cameron Smith said:
I can't agree with this... I never gave much creedence to the idea that things on a pool table happen because of "fortune", or lack thereof. Any shot you play has consequences that can, for the most part, be predicted. Sure, you can't accurately predict every minute aspect of every roll, but to say that an 8-ball sunk early is always due to bad luck is hogwash. If the eight is hanging, you either avoid it or you sink it. If it's in the line of the natural path of the cueball after a simple cut, you have to analyze what will happen to the eight. I don't see any reason to consider it bad luck, rather, it's usually just bad planning or lack of cueball control.
Cameron Smith said:
Well, there's an obvious difference between giving ball-in-hand and losing the game. There are times when giving ball-in-hand is not a big disadvantage at all (opponent has tough clusters, multiple problem balls). A loss is just that: game over. BIH is nowhere near being a certain loss, especially for players below the pro level, or in situations where I'm way ahead of my opponent and have him well tied up. I definitely think changing this rule to be BIH makes 8-ball strategy a bit different. If my last OB is frozen on a dead combination with the eight, hanging deep in a corner pocket, I'm normally pretty screwed. With this proposed rule change, I can play the combination, perhaps sinking the eight and my last OB, and only give the opponent BIH, which may or may not lead to a lost game. If my opponent has a lot of problem balls, I still have a great chance of winning, especially if that was my last OB and I made it along with the eight in my example. That's only one scenario, I can think of many more that have drastically different consequences under these two early-eight rule scenarios.
Yes, you still would have to be careful around the eight...but I think it is obvious that, in some situations, you could afford to be FAR less careful. I think the difference is substantial.
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To further illustrate my opinion on the concept of "misfortune" in pool...
If you consider accidentally pocketing the eight to be "bad luck"... Then, is it also bad luck for me to miss shape on a shot, freezing myself against an opponent's ball and hooking myself? That happens plenty in amateur games, and even pro games. The clear answer is no, has nothing to do with luck. I simply failed to execute a good shot. I came up short, I rolled too far or too wide off a rail, etc. Similarly, if I carom into the eight and pocket it early, I either failed to recognize the danger of it, didn't execute in getting around it, took too big of a risk, or just slopped it in by hitting with too much force and carelessly ran into too many balls. These are all consequences of a poor shot, that could have been hit better.
Now, I understand that pool is not completely controllable, sometimes things happen by chance that seem odd or not in line with the normal working of pool (i.e. skids, hitting a lump in the slate, etc). But, to say that every early-pocketed eight is always due to some unforseen, uncontrollable circumstance seems like a cop-out way of explaining poor shots.
The game of Eight Ball WITHOUT A DOUBT changes if you change this rule, and in quite a measurable way. Whether it's for better or worse, I don't know, I only have my opinion on that matter.
If you consider accidentally pocketing the eight to be "bad luck"... Then, is it also bad luck for me to miss shape on a shot, freezing myself against an opponent's ball and hooking myself? That happens plenty in amateur games, and even pro games. The clear answer is no, has nothing to do with luck. I simply failed to execute a good shot. I came up short, I rolled too far or too wide off a rail, etc. Similarly, if I carom into the eight and pocket it early, I either failed to recognize the danger of it, didn't execute in getting around it, took too big of a risk, or just slopped it in by hitting with too much force and carelessly ran into too many balls. These are all consequences of a poor shot, that could have been hit better.
Now, I understand that pool is not completely controllable, sometimes things happen by chance that seem odd or not in line with the normal working of pool (i.e. skids, hitting a lump in the slate, etc). But, to say that every early-pocketed eight is always due to some unforseen, uncontrollable circumstance seems like a cop-out way of explaining poor shots.
The game of Eight Ball WITHOUT A DOUBT changes if you change this rule, and in quite a measurable way. Whether it's for better or worse, I don't know, I only have my opinion on that matter.
This thread seems to have been started by someone who is a 9 Ball player with limited 8 Ball experience. Having the 8 sancrosanct until the end ADDS to the game, in ways already mentioned. You treat the 8 with respect, and control your shoots accordingly.
If every game was the same, life would be a bit boring. One of the reasons I'm trying other games (I'm into 8 Ball), is they make me think differently, and are adding to my skills and enjoyment of cue sports in general.
Daniel
If every game was the same, life would be a bit boring. One of the reasons I'm trying other games (I'm into 8 Ball), is they make me think differently, and are adding to my skills and enjoyment of cue sports in general.
Daniel
Juanbond- I see your point and I agree with you sort of about the luck deal, as well as the strategy. Luck is attributed to a series of occurances that were beyond a persons ability to predict, what is luck for a banger is easily predictable for a pro. I guess in short I just agree with Colin, that the punishment doesn't befit the crime. I just think that games should be played out.
Captain Dan- Nope not a 9 ball player per se. I'm a snooker and 14.1 player who plays 9 ball because that's the only game played around these parts. I'm actually not a big fan of 9 ball, I don't like the fact that you don't have to call shots and you can luck in the 9 ball. That's where my problem with the 8 ball rule comes in, it's kind of the opposite, but just as sucky.
pdcue, I don't even know what a troll is. But if by troll you mean big, green and lives under a bridge, nope I am short 5'7, not green (unless I'm sick) and live in a house. But I live near a bridge.
Captain Dan- Nope not a 9 ball player per se. I'm a snooker and 14.1 player who plays 9 ball because that's the only game played around these parts. I'm actually not a big fan of 9 ball, I don't like the fact that you don't have to call shots and you can luck in the 9 ball. That's where my problem with the 8 ball rule comes in, it's kind of the opposite, but just as sucky.
pdcue, I don't even know what a troll is. But if by troll you mean big, green and lives under a bridge, nope I am short 5'7, not green (unless I'm sick) and live in a house. But I live near a bridge.