SJM at the Las Vegas Open

[Scrunge19]

I kinda think the Brunswick sponsorship might be more about charisma, compelling online presence, and the ensuing potential for selling stuff than it is about elite skills.

She’s also tight with Oscar who is heavily involved with Brunswick. That probably helps a little too.

 

[Cord]

Perhaps so. Thanks for your input.

Problem for me is that when I think of the players that were sponsored by Brunswick, they were all at the very top of the sport. Names like Mosconi, Balukas, Sigel, and Mataya-Laurance were the Brunswick-sponsored players from about 1950-2010. Each of them had attained the world #1 ranking before attaining their Brunswick sponsorship deal. Charisma had nothing to do with their selection, and they were not the most charismatic players of their respective eras.

Sponsorship is about making your products as visible as possible, which happens when sponsored players win tournaments. Obviously, this is what Brunswick expects of Savannah, and perhaps time will prove them right, but so far they are wrong.

I understand your point of view. Please forgive my cynicism, but it seems the current iteration of Brunswick might be taking a different marketing strategy. Online presence is a valuable commodity in 2026, and Savannah & her support team are arguably doing that part of the job as well as anyone, barring perhaps Jasmin Ouschan. I agree that it would certainly be more effective with consistently higher tournament finishes.

 

[sjm]

I understand your point of view. Please forgive my cynicism, but it seems the current iteration of Brunswick might be taking a different marketing strategy. Online presence is a valuable commodity in 2026, and Savannah & her support team are arguably doing that part of the job as well as anyone, barring perhaps Jasmin Ouschan. I agree that it would certainly be more effective with consistently higher tournament finishes.

Thanks for that. You have highlighted a critical difference between the marketing of pool back in the day and today and I learned something from it.

 

[mikepage]

[...]

I never saw the teenaged Pia Filler play, so I must decline comment.

Don't know how Pia Blaeser played at Savannah's age. But at 19, 20, and 21, she was performing in the 640s, about 50 points below where Savannah is now [Yes, Savannah's current skill (red X) outruns her Fargo Rating by about 35 points].

Pia has maybe the most interesting performance curve we've seen. Each blue point here is 400 games. Two things happened in the gap around age 22 here. One is Covid. So no traveling and competing. The other is she married arguably the best pool player in the universe. Sure, she's not at Han Yu's or Chezka's speed. But to be around USA top 100 level (of all players) is impressive. Stu points out the greats tend to show early signs of it. While that may generally be true, Pia's curve suggests there may also be counterexamples.

Savannah and Sofia are pretty much indistinguishable by skill right now, and Savannah is younger.

I understand Stu's point that the hype is a bit much. But I think he swings the pendulum too far in the other direction. For a young woman who just turned 16 to be perhaps one of the top 10 16-and-under players (of any sex) in the world is a pretty big deal.

I think some of the young-woman teenagers who played at world-class speed in the past may have done so at a time when the bar was lower.

 

[skogstokig]

Don't know how Pia Blaeser played at Savannah's age. But at 19, 20, and 21, she was performing in the 640s, about 50 points below where Savannah is now [Yes, Savannah's current skill (red X) outruns her Fargo Rating by about 35 points].

Pia has maybe the most interesting performance curve we've seen. Each blue point here is 400 games. Two things happened in the gap around age 22 here. One is Covid. So no traveling and competing. The other is she married arguably the best pool player in the universe. Sure, she's not at Han Yu's or Chezka's speed. But to be around USA top 100 level (of all players) is impressive. Stu points out the greats tend to show early signs of it. While that may generally be true, Pia's curve suggests there may also be counterexamples.

Savannah and Sofia are pretty much indistinguishable by skill right now, and Savannah is younger.

I understand Stu's point that the hype is a bit much. But I think he swings the pendulum too far in the other direction. For a young woman who just turned 16 to be perhaps one of the top 10 16-and-under players (of any sex) in the world is a pretty big deal.

I think some of the young-woman teenagers who played at world-class speed in the past may have done so at a time when the bar was lower.


View attachment 888453

so my guesstimate that savannah and sofia are actually #5 and #6 in the US seems correct? how much is sofia lagging?

 

[mikepage]

so my guesstimate that savannah and sofia are actually #5 and #6 in the US seems correct? how much is sofia lagging?

I would say all three on the US list who are playing at a higher level than Savannah and Sofia were at their age training and competing in Europe. The two are performing similarly and the lag is somewhere in the 30s points.

 

[sjm]

I think some of the young-woman teenagers who played at world-class speed in the past may have done so at a time when the bar was lower.

This is the popular excuse for the failure of virtually all the teen phenoms that don't make it to the game's top tier. Yes, the fields today are deeper than ever, but it was just as hard to join the ranks of the super-elite some 25 years ago as it is today, and it was equally true in both men's and women's pool.

If we restrict our attention to women's pool, when teenaged Jasmin Ouschan came along in the early 2000s, winning a WPBA event meant beating Allison Fisher, Karen Corr, Kelly Fisher, Gerda Hofstatter, Jeanette Lee, Belinda Calhoun, Robin Bell Dodson, Loree Jon Jones, and Ewa Mataya Laurance. That's 9 BCA hall of famers in every field and Ga Young Kim, who competed back then, will likely enter the hall in 2026, having fallen two votes short in 2025. Add to that near BCA Hall of Fame quality players like Vivian Villareal and Xiaoting Pan, and super-dangerous players like Jennifer Chen, Helena Thornfeldt and Monica Webb, and joining the ranks of the super-elite was an extremely tall order back then.

Scaling the game's highest heights was a herculean task then, just as now. You may think it was easier to do so, but none of the American teens of the early 2000's ever broke through to the game's top tier and it could be a long wait before another American woman is inducted into the BCA Hall of Fame.

 

[Brookeland Bill]

Children competing with professionals. Does the child competing at a very high level pro positive for the child or self defeating. Does it help or hurt the child’s game and confidence?

 

[loggerhead12]

The "give Savannah time" argument is all well and good, but such thinking didn't work for the last two major American teen phenoms that were very strong players in their teens, namely April Larson (Fargo 666) and Briana Miller (Fargo 679). Both are solid players, but neither ever reached the ranks of the elite and neither is ever in the discussion when it comes to the biggest titles.

Hopefully she'll follow the Jasmine Ouschan path instead. Jasmine didn't really shine until she was 19.

 

[loggerhead12]

Sponsorship is about making your products as visible as possible, which happens when sponsored players win tournaments. Obviously, this is what Brunswick expects of Savannah, and perhaps time will prove them right, but so far they are wrong.

Hmm. She's pretty dang visible already. I do see her everywhere.

 

[sjm]

Hopefully she'll follow the Jasmine Ouschan path instead. Jasmine didn't really shine until she was 19.

I saw Jasmin play when she was 15 and she was already very dangerous. By age 15, she had even beaten Helena Thornfeldt at the WPBA Nationals and had several hundred ball runs at straight pool. As a mid-teen, she was already competitive with the men at Euro-tour events. Yes, she won the World Games gold medal at 19, and that is, perhaps, when she became one of the game's superstars.

Like you, I'm hoping that Savannah follows in the footsteps of Jasmin.

 

[garczar]

You are the clown Bill. So someone who dedicates their life to the game is a side show? Get a life old man this kid plays better than you ever have and it obviously rubs you the wrong way. How about you live your life and let the kid live hers. Does it make you feel good to bash a 16 year old girl that is chasing her dream?

She may not be world class yet but she is doing everything it takes to try and get there.

Tend to agree here but she has been over-hyped in the pool media. US pool has been in the dumps sooooooo long that anyone that shows any game gets this treatment. I hope she doesn't pay any attention to it or she'll burn out.

 

[garczar]

Unfortunately, yours is an absolute assessment, not a relative assessment. If another young American teen reaches #66 in the world, we will all be impressed ... but Savannah is different.

She has been hyped to the point of absurdity, earning both a Billiards Digest cover and the coveted Brunswick sponsorship long before showing anything close to elite skills at the table.

Even relative to other American phenoms of the past, she has achieved next to nothing. Both Jean Balukas and Loree Jon Jones were already world champions by Savannah's age. Other non-American female teen phenoms like Siming Chen, Han Yu, Jasmin Ouschan, Ewa Mataya Laurance and Ga Young Kim were all world beaters in their teens.

Hence, even for her age, Savannah offers little to get really excited about. As was noted in my original post, I do see some development, and I've tried hard to take a positive view of it, but most others in this thread have taken a lesser view.

Perhaps she'll take that next step, but, while she is still fairly young, we can no longer pretend that she is inexperienced. Despite a pretty heavy dose of elite competition, there are parts of her game that are not developing much, and, in my assessment, her knowledge is not where it could have been and should have been by now.

The "give Savannah time" argument is all well and good, but such thinking didn't work for the last two major American teen phenoms that were very strong players in their teens, namely April Larson (Fargo 666) and Briana Miller (Fargo 679). Both are solid players, but neither ever reached the ranks of the elite and neither is ever in the discussion when it comes to the biggest titles.

We live in a world where we measure things relative to our expectations. The Billiard Press, Brunswick and many others have set the expectations very high for Savannah, and she has yet to meet them. I wish her well but will not subscribe to the notion that for her age and level of experience, she is far enough along.

I'll be happy to eat my words if Savannah emerges as super-elite. Let us be lenient and call that top 20 based on Fargo in the women's game. Wishing her well in her pursuit of excellence.

Ditto on the knowledge part. I've watched only a few of her matches and the way she tries to run balls shows lack of knowledge for someone so highly touted. Your comparison to April/Briana are pretty accurate. Hopefully Sav goes way past what they've done.

 

[jbart65]

she has been over-hyped in the pool media.

I see this a lot. Easton is overhyped. Yet there is virtually no pool media to speak of in the U.S. aside from Billiards Digest. Meaning Mike Panozzo and his very small staff.

Easton might have gotten on the cover of Billiards Digest, but Panozzo has to put someone on it 12 times a year and sell magazines! He is not the type to overhype anyone, however, in his magazine or on social media.

 

[middleofnowhere]

I saw Jasmin play when she was 15 and she was already very dangerous. By age 15, she had even beaten Helena Thornfeldt at the WPBA Nationals and had several hundred ball runs at straight pool. As a mid-teen, she was already competitive with the men at Euro-tour events. Yes, she won the World Games gold medal at 19, and that is, perhaps, when she became one of the game's superstars.

Like you, I'm hoping that Savannah follows in the footsteps of Jasmin.

You have seen Savannah play in person. Does she come across in person like in tv? She literally seems unlikable. The other night she started a match and didn't make a ball on the break.

She snatched up her chalk and stomped off with shoulders down and angry face. The GD match had not even started yet and she had an attitude.
Is this what she is really like? It is certainly how she comes across.

 

[sjm]

You have seen Savannah play in person. Does she come across in person like in tv? She literally seems unlikable. The other night she started a match and didn't make a ball on the break.

She snatched up her chalk and stomped off with shoulders down and angry face. The GD match had not even started yet and she had an attitude.
Is this what she is really like? It is certainly how she comes across.

Yeah, her body language at the table can be negative, and her sportsmanship still needs work. I think those issues can be worked out.

Off the table, I like her better. She was polite the one time I met her and she has some charisma.

 

[garczar]

I see this a lot. Easton is overhyped. Yet there is virtually no pool media to speak of in the U.S. aside from Billiards Digest. Meaning Mike Panozzo and his very small staff.

Easton might have gotten on the cover of Billiards Digest, but Panozzo has to put someone on it 12 times a year and sell magazines! He is not the type to overhype anyone, however, in his magazine or on social media.

Media is not just one magazine. You have multiple outlets on-line and the online youtubers are generally more up to date on the scene.

 

[penguin]

Don't know how Pia Blaeser played at Savannah's age. But at 19, 20, and 21, she was performing in the 640s, about 50 points below where Savannah is now [Yes, Savannah's current skill (red X) outruns her Fargo Rating by about 35 points].

Sounds like you're saying that a player's Fargo rating is not an accurate representation of their real skill level.

More importantly, if there is quantifiable data in the system which indicates that Savannah is much closer to a 700 than to her current rating of 659, why has the "Fargo algorithm" not been able to account for this?

 

[skogstokig]

Sounds like you're saying that a player's Fargo rating is not an accurate representation of their real skill level.

More importantly, if there is quantifiable data in the system which indicates that Savannah is much closer to a 700 than to her current rating of 659, why has the "Fargo algorithm" not been able to account for this?

young players sometimes improve faster than the rating

 

[easy-e]

You have seen Savannah play in person. Does she come across in person like in tv? She literally seems unlikable. The other night she started a match and didn't make a ball on the break.

She snatched up her chalk and stomped off with shoulders down and angry face. The GD match had not even started yet and she had an attitude.
Is this what she is really like? It is certainly how she comes across.

I've played with and against Savannah a few times over the past year or so. She's an incredible kid. Very polite, very friendly, and when she's in the right mood she's pretty darn funny. She's the kind who excels at everything she does. She was a great little ice skater/hockey player, she's a very talented musician, gets great grades, and (as I stated earlier) is a very sweet little girl. I think it sucks that she has to develop a bit of a rough edge in the pool world, but it has to happen. She's in a tough world.

I'm always rooting for her.