Skill Level of BCA instructors.

[Duane Tuula]

Instructor Levels

1. Recognized
2. Certified
3. Advanced
4. Master

The 4 levels of the BCA Instructor Program.......SPF=randyg

So "recognized" means you took a test about the game and may not be able to make a single ball.

Do the other levels say anything about playing ability? Or do they simply mean they have followed a course of study? Is it possible that a BCA "Master" level instructor could be an APA 3?

 

[pooltchr]

The other levels don't consider playing ability. The instructors are rated on their knowledge, and the ability to impart that knowledge to students of all skill levels. Part of that ability includes being able to demonstrate the concepts you are teaching. So while I have never been asked to run X number of racks to advance through the program, when the time comes, I need to be able to demonstrate a 3 rail kick shot, or a full ball jump shot, or a 16 inch draw shot with reasonable accuracy. I guess if I can demonstrate those concepts, it almost naturally follows that I can hold my own in a match. Some may slip through, but they would be the exception and not the rule. All of the instructors I have worked with can and do play quite well, when they decide to play.

Steve

 

[jrt30004]

this is all just sad. i don't care who "recognized" you. if you are a 2/3 in the apa you don't have any business even instructing other 2's and 3's. all you're going to do is impart your bad habits on to them. in addition we all get on people around here about having bad grammar and spelling but i can assure you i would never put a release out for my business with the mistakes her webpage has in it. now back to the "recognized" part, it frightens me to think you could possibly be ripped by a scammer who had the same credentials as this woman. at least she is honest about her level of play. but imagine you take a lesson with someone and they represent themselves to be something they are not. and one poster in this thread wrote he feels he can coach because he can call shot and position from the couch. sure, alot of us can because we watch and are knowledgeable about the game. it doesn't mean you can teach and impart the knowledge to others. it just means that you yourself are learning. if i haven't watched you play or played you or know and trust someone who has seen you play and know for sure that your better than me i am barley going to listen to you, i am sure as hell not going to pay you money for a lesson.

 

[Scott Lee]

jrt30004...Yes, it is indeed sad...sad for you, because you obviously belong to the "if you can't beat me, you can't teach me" club! But that's okay...to each their own. Oh yeah...do you suppose there are some pros out there who are STILL LEARNING? There must be, because they take lessons, or go through pool school!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

this is all just sad. if i haven't watched you play or played you or know and trust someone who has seen you play and know for sure that your better than me i am barley going to listen to you, i am sure as hell not going to pay you money for a lesson.

 

[3andstop]

So "recognized" means you took a test about the game and may not be able to make a single ball.

Do the other levels say anything about playing ability? Or do they simply mean they have followed a course of study? Is it possible that a BCA "Master" level instructor could be an APA 3?

LOL ...actually it would seem you took your test and "paid your money". It's one thing to call a person recognized, and yet another to allow them to teach under the BCA title when their skill level is no better than beginner themselves. Better to call them "members" and then require much higher standards of accomplishment before they could use the title to teach.

 

[jrt30004]

jrt30004...Yes, it is indeed sad...sad for you, because you obviously belong to the "if you can't beat me, you can't teach me" club! But that's okay...to each their own. Oh yeah...do you suppose there are some pros out there who are STILL LEARNING? There must be, because they take lessons, or go through pool school!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

if your reply wasn't so sarcastic i might be willing to say you misunderstood me but i'm guessing you didn't get what i meant because you couldn't see through your smugness. you don't have to be able to beat me, you have to know things i don't. you actually have to be able to play and as i said in my post TEACH. it's not that hard to beat me. i'm barely a 6 in the apa, and people teach me things every week. but if you're just throwing up a webpage saying you're recognized by the bca or running your mouth in a pool room saying i should do this and i should do that - you better be able to show me something. as i said i can tell you a whole bunch of things that i see the pros do. forced follow for position, three rails around the table for the leave on the 9. but it doesn't mean i can teach someone how to do it. and trust me i am in no way insulting your teaching abilities. i don't know you, i don't know anyone who knows you, but that also means i wouldn't pay you money for a lesson until i checked you out. maybe saw you play or spoke to someone who had taken a lesson with you. you may be an absoultely amazing teacher but i want to see a little proof before i pay you. an example of this is stevie moore. he's a pro and he offers lessons down here in atlanta. i wish i had the money to take a few lessons from him. and it's not because he could wipe the floor with me. it's because i have a friend who is a 6 in the apa and we used to play even, he took lessons with stevie and now he's got things in his arsenal that i can't handle. stevie is worth the money and i have some proof that i have seen. that was my point.

 

[Duane Tuula]

Demonstrated Skill

The other levels don't consider playing ability. The instructors are rated on their knowledge, and the ability to impart that knowledge to students of all skill levels. Part of that ability includes being able to demonstrate the concepts you are teaching. So while I have never been asked to run X number of racks to advance through the program, when the time comes, I need to be able to demonstrate a 3 rail kick shot, or a full ball jump shot, or a 16 inch draw shot with reasonable accuracy. I guess if I can demonstrate those concepts, it almost naturally follows that I can hold my own in a match. Some may slip through, but they would be the exception and not the rule. All of the instructors I have worked with can and do play quite well, when they decide to play.

Steve

Very informative, thanks for that input. I also picked that up from Mike Page's post as well. Now I'm wondering if anyone ever "really" fails a test. If I paid money, attended and gave a good effort but couldn't actually perform a given shot (i.e. full ball jump) would I still be awarded with a certification? Would the mere fact that I tried hard and understood the concept be enough?

 

[JB Cases]

I just found this page when I googled Tom Simpson. I guess Tom gave this person some lessons and they passed the BCA instructr program. I find it pretty funny and at the same time quite disturbing. The person on the page says they are a recognized BCA instructor, however they also admit that they are an APA skill level 2 in 9Ball and 3 in 8ball. I thought you had to be a very good player to be a recognized instructor, boy was I wrong. Goes to show you, get lessons with someone with a proven track record or a pro.

http://www.billiards-for-beginners.com/about-me.html

I can't comment on what the BCA criteria is for instructor certification. I am however quite impressed that a relative beginner would create and maintain such a comprehensive website aimed at her fellow beginners.

This to me is a real BRIGHT SPOT for pool when we come across a person who takes up the game later in life and shows such passion for it.

If her enthusiasm spreads to other beginners and she can introduce them to the game then it's good for all of us.

 

[Scott Lee]

Duane...To answer your question in a word...yes! Instructor candidates do, and have failed the tests to be any level instructor. If the candidate was not qualified, the majority of the "certification" fees are refunded, and that person is given the information they need, to study, and try to pass another time (similar to a lawyer trying and failing the bar exam...although not nearly as stringent).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Very informative, thanks for that input. I also picked that up from Mike Page's post as well. Now I'm wondering if anyone ever "really" fails a test. If I paid money, attended and gave a good effort but couldn't actually perform a given shot (i.e. full ball jump) would I still be awarded with a certification? Would the mere fact that I tried hard and understood the concept be enough?

 

[Scott Lee]

jrt30004...I wasn't being sarcastic (or smug) at all. There are many players with the mindset I described. From your post you seemed to me, to fit that description. If it was me, I'd want to take lessons from who Stevie Moore took lessons from...Stan Shuffett. Do you think Stan plays as well as Stevie? There's no question that he does not, but that he's an excellent instructor. My point, which you failed to get, and which is quite different from yours, is that while a person may not be an expert player, they may still be a very well qualified instructor.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

if your reply wasn't so sarcastic i might be willing to say you misunderstood me but i'm guessing you didn't get what i meant because you couldn't see through your smugness. you don't have to be able to beat me, you have to know things i don't. you actually have to be able to play and as i said in my post TEACH. it's not that hard to beat me. i'm barely a 6 in the apa, and people teach me things every week. but if you're just throwing up a webpage saying you're recognized by the bca or running your mouth in a pool room saying i should do this and i should do that - you better be able to show me something. as i said i can tell you a whole bunch of things that i see the pros do. forced follow for position, three rails around the table for the leave on the 9. but it doesn't mean i can teach someone how to do it. and trust me i am in no way insulting your teaching abilities. i don't know you, i don't know anyone who knows you, but that also means i wouldn't pay you money for a lesson until i checked you out. maybe saw you play or spoke to someone who had taken a lesson with you. you may be an absoultely amazing teacher but i want to see a little proof before i pay you. an example of this is stevie moore. he's a pro and he offers lessons down here in atlanta. i wish i had the money to take a few lessons from him. and it's not because he could wipe the floor with me. it's because i have a friend who is a 6 in the apa and we used to play even, he took lessons with stevie and now he's got things in his arsenal that i can't handle. stevie is worth the money and i have some proof that i have seen. that was my point.

 

[Scott Lee]

tap, tap, tap John! Well said!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I can't comment on what the BCA criteria is for instructor certification. I am however quite impressed that a relative beginner would create and maintain such a comprehensive website aimed at her fellow beginners.

This to me is a real BRIGHT SPOT for pool when we come across a person who takes up the game later in life and shows such passion for it.

If her enthusiasm spreads to other beginners and she can introduce them to the game then it's good for all of us.

 

[Tristan]

only the finest

You guys aren't being fair. I dated/took lessons from Ida and she helped me a lot. The best part of the lessons were the "Secret Aiming Systems of the Pros."

Once I learned them (there are multiple systems, but that's for another thread!), I discovered the secret to never missing another ball.

The good news is that, as long as I use the systems in PRECISELY the right manner, I never miss. The bad news is that I often apply the systems incorrectly and miss. :frown: After fiddling with my abacus, I determined that my ball-pocketing average remained roughly the same after learning the secrets as before, but this is probably due to problems with my THROWING technique.

Mr. Simpson clearly has excellent judgement in graduating this fine instructor into the halls of Billiard-dom. Like I always say: ONLY THE FINEST!

 

[jrt30004]

jrt30004...I wasn't being sarcastic (or smug) at all. There are many players with the mindset I described. From your post you seemed to me, to fit that description. If it was me, I'd want to take lessons from who Stevie Moore took lessons from...Stan Shuffett. Do you think Stan plays as well as Stevie? There's no question that he does not, but that he's an excellent instructor. My point, which you failed to get, and which is quite different from yours, is that while a person may not be an expert player, they may still be a very well qualified instructor.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

scott, i apologize for reading your reply the wrong way. that's the hard part with words on a screen, you can't hear tone and inflection. what i am trying to convey in my posts is that i wholeheartedly agree with you. the student may be the better player and the teacher a better teacher, i won't argue with your point there. i accept it totally and unconditionaly. but i stick to my guns when i say i wouldn't give someone money with out doing a little homework. i want to KNOW not assume someone is a good teacher. i have visited your page before, and as i said, you may be a great teacher. you have an amazing pedigree, but i want more than your info on a page before you teach me. and yes i'd take lessons from stevie's teacher, but same thing applies. i hope my explanation of how i feel is coming through because like i said before i don't want to be viewed as knocking teachers, including yourself. i guess a good way to put my feelings is this, i would shop for a teacher like i would shop for anything else. i am not rich and i will not through my hard earned cash into the wind. i hope that makes it a little easier to see where i am coming from. again appologies for reading the wrong intent from your post.

 

[Duane Tuula]

Duane...To answer your question in a word...yes! Instructor candidates do, and have failed the tests to be any level instructor. If the candidate was not qualified, the majority of the "certification" fees are refunded, and that person is given the information they need, to study, and try to pass another time (similar to a lawyer trying and failing the bar exam...although not nearly as stringent).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I'm actually amazed in some strange way. However, I do understand from this thread and many others in the past the "green wall" of BCA instructors is in full force.

I have a ton of respect for many/most of the instructors. Unfortunately, I am also saddened for those customers of unqualifed instructors that still exist and will be defended to the end by those who are qualified "just because".

You don't have to "beat me to teach me" but you need to have a certain level of skill and understanding to be able to teach beyond rudimentary fundamentals of the game.

So, what is the skill level of BCA instructors? A master instructor could be a great player, average or absolutely a hack. Caveat emptor!!

 

[APA7]

I can't speak for the instructor you named, but NONE of our instructors (we have 100+ in our SPF family) would have that limited ability. IMO, an APA 2 or 3 does not have the integral skills to teach someone else, as they are a beginner themselves. While the "recognized instructor" status is the entry level in the BCA certified instructor program, we feel that certain skills are necessary to convey more than basic simple concepts, like SPF. On the other hand, anyone who clearly understands SPF (whether they are a certified instructor or not) should be able to communicate them to another player, regardless of skill level.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I agree. How can she teach things that R above her skill level?? :sorry:

Brian

 

[randyg]

The thing that I like best about the BCA Instructors Program is we are graded on our TEACHING ability first. Being able to run 50 balls is a bonus.

As in most all Unions, we also have an entry level (Recognized). Have to start some place. It's then up to the Instructor to continue his education. As each Instructor works his way up the ladder they have different tasks and goals to accomplish, one is to improve their own playablity. Many Recognized Instructors fall by the wayside because of these tasks, many continue on.

I have Recognized many TOP Professional players into our BCA Instructor Program. Never once did they ask me if I could play! I think they chose me because I have a great teaching program and knowledge to share.

Proud to be a BCA Master Instructor
SPF=randyg

 

[mikepage]

I'm actually amazed in some strange way. However, I do understand from this thread and many others in the past the "green wall" of BCA instructors is in full force.

I have a ton of respect for many/most of the instructors. Unfortunately, I am also saddened for those customers of unqualifed instructors that still exist and will be defended to the end by those who are qualified "just because".

You don't have to "beat me to teach me" but you need to have a certain level of skill and understanding to be able to teach beyond rudimentary fundamentals of the game.

So, what is the skill level of BCA instructors? A master instructor could be a great player, average or absolutely a hack. Caveat emptor!!

There is also prescreening by the various billiard academies that train instructors. For instance, if you look at www.sfbilliards.com, you will see the "recognized instructor" course is a course for "advanced players."

from the website
**************************
Introduction to Billiard Instruction

This one-day, eight-hour course provides an introduction to BCA-certified instruction. While this introduction does not result in BCA Certificate, it does give the potential instructor a start on the three-day courses listed below, and is an economical way to start the path to Certification. Partial credit will be applied from this course towards the "Recognized" level if taken from the SFBA.

BCA Recognized Instructor Course (Outline)

This three-day course is intended for advanced players who want to improve their ability as instructors. It is not a course to learn how to play; it is a course to learn how to teach billiards. There is an entrance screening process so that both the Candidate and the SFBA can see if this is the right course for the Candidate.

BCA Certified Instructor Course

This three-day course is for Recognized Instructors who have sufficient experience to advance to Certified level. There are both written and practical tests. On the third day, the Candidate will conduct the Basics Clinic listed above with one or two beginners as students.
***************************

 

[pooltchr]

So, what is the skill level of BCA instructors? A master instructor could be a great player, average or absolutely a hack. Caveat emptor!!

It's different for each individual instructor. Like Randy said, as an instructor advances through the 4 levels, they are required to demonstrate different skills. I dare say that every master instructor would be well above average as a player. I also suspect if they took all the time they spend teaching, and used it to practice, they would be among the top players anywhere. But then, they wouldn't have time to be instructors. You have to decide your own priorities in life. Most of us instructors have decided teaching takes priority over playing.

Steve

 

[Bigkahuna]

if your reply wasn't so sarcastic i might be willing to say you misunderstood me but i'm guessing you didn't get what i meant because you couldn't see through your smugness. you don't have to be able to beat me, you have to know things i don't. you actually have to be able to play and as i said in my post TEACH. it's not that hard to beat me. i'm barely a 6 in the apa, and people teach me things every week. but if you're just throwing up a webpage saying you're recognized by the bca or running your mouth in a pool room saying i should do this and i should do that - you better be able to show me something. as i said i can tell you a whole bunch of things that i see the pros do. forced follow for position, three rails around the table for the leave on the 9. but it doesn't mean i can teach someone how to do it. and trust me i am in no way insulting your teaching abilities. i don't know you, i don't know anyone who knows you, but that also means i wouldn't pay you money for a lesson until i checked you out. maybe saw you play or spoke to someone who had taken a lesson with you. you may be an absoultely amazing teacher but i want to see a little proof before i pay you. an example of this is stevie moore. he's a pro and he offers lessons down here in atlanta. i wish i had the money to take a few lessons from him. and it's not because he could wipe the floor with me. it's because i have a friend who is a 6 in the apa and we used to play even, he took lessons with stevie and now he's got things in his arsenal that i can't handle. stevie is worth the money and i have some proof that i have seen. that was my point.

I think I read that Stevie Moore attributes his recent success to some instruction he has taken.

 

[Bigkahuna]

jrt30004...I wasn't being sarcastic (or smug) at all. There are many players with the mindset I described. From your post you seemed to me, to fit that description. If it was me, I'd want to take lessons from who Stevie Moore took lessons from...Stan Shuffett. Do you think Stan plays as well as Stevie? There's no question that he does not, but that he's an excellent instructor. My point, which you failed to get, and which is quite different from yours, is that while a person may not be an expert player, they may still be a very well qualified instructor.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I would certainly rather have an expert instructor than an expert player who couldn't instruct a lick.