Skill Level of BCA instructors.

JMS said:
I just found this page when I googled Tom Simpson. I guess Tom gave this person some lessons and they passed the BCA instructr program. I find it pretty funny and at the same time quite disturbing. The person on the page says they are a recognized BCA instructor, however they also admit that they are an APA skill level 2 in 9Ball and 3 in 8ball. I thought you had to be a very good player to be a recognized instructor, boy was I wrong. Goes to show you, get lessons with someone with a proven track record or a pro.

http://www.billiards-for-beginners.com/about-me.html
Click to expand...

How in the world can someone with an APA skill level of "APA skill level 2 in 9Ball and 3 in 8ball" teach anybody anything about pool? Players with skill levels that low are supposed to be beginners, but in the APA you never know since sandbagging is so prevelant.

James
 
Few people are claiming that you have to be a top player to be an instructor. However I think there's a difference between a football coach and a pool instructor, in terms of expectations about ability.

I'm trying to articulate the difference, maybe it's because the game is more accessible to the average person and for a much longer part of your life? There's little excuse to claim to be devoted enough to the game to have something to teach and not have a certain minimum skill level.
 
PKM said:
Few people are claiming that you have to be a top player to be an instructor. However I think there's a difference between a football coach and a pool instructor, in terms of expectations about ability.

I'm trying to articulate the difference, maybe it's because the game is more accessible to the average person and for a much longer part of your life? There's little excuse to claim to be devoted enough to the game to have something to teach and not have a certain minimum skill level.
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U could not B more right!!!:eek: :happydance:

Brian
 
Let me share a great statement that I remember hearing when I called the cue tech school in Texas. I cannot remember exactly who it was I spoke with, but he was great to speak with, and answered all of my questions perfectly. I was, and still am very intersted in becoming a certified instructor. Too bad it is a bit too far fro me to conveniently attend so far.

Anyway, I let him know a little about me ( I am an APA 7 eyc, etc,) I was basically saying that I felt I was a fairly accomplished player, but in no way a top tier player, but I was willing to do whatever was neceassry to improve.

His response was classic : " Well. we don't really get any beginners here, they already know everything"


It may not be word for word, but you get what I am saying. I still remember how it struck me as being so true.





Anyway to everybody getting worked up over sombody who has the gall to call themself an instructor while being a very low ranked player, think about this:

I bet ALL of you ( me too ) have helped another player with some aspect of the game along the way to becoming the level of player you are now. You may have had the best of intentions, and tried your best, but were you really qualified to teach it? I bet ALMOST EVERYONE has passed on some bit of knowledge to another without a "real understanding" of it. You parroted something you heard from another without truly having an applicable understanding of it. It the questions from your student got to be too much it usually resorts to " well, it is kinda complicated, but this is the jist of it, I hope that helps" or something to the matter. Have you really done a service to your " student"? You (we) have held ourselves up for at least that moment as a person qualified to teach that topic without feeling the need to be certified or recognoized, or going through any program at all. At least she went to the trouble of LEARNING correctly BEFORE she went on to show sombody else.

At least this person is honest about their level of play, and their taget students. They are tested on the fact that they at least have learned and demonstrated their correct understanding of basic principals of pool. They are not like many others who just parrot things they have heard, or make it up as they go along.

I really do not have any problem thinking that this person IS qualified to introduce new students to the game in a correct and organized manner. She has proven to me at least that she has a passion for this game, and a passion to show it to others. She has proven also that she IS concerned about imparting true and correct information with accepted teaching methods. I am sorry, but that is good enough for me!

Now, that is not to say that I would seek out this person for my personal instruction. I also have a feeling that if I did, she would have no problem refferring me to someone who would be able to help me. I also would NOT be suprised if there was something she could show me that would be of some value.

I have many books on pool. Most of them at least touch on the basics. Everytime I got a new book, I did not skip this section. What was the harm in reviewing something I think I already know? Many times, it would clarify something a little more, or get me to look at something I already know in a new way. Never a bad thing.

I always say " the day you declare you are too good to learn something is the day you prove it to be true"



I guess my REAL point in all of this is : With all of the many "teachers" out there spouting off nonsense who never cared enough to take any instruction or go through a program to learn proper teaching methods, WHY single out one who DID care enough about her students to do everything she could to teach the best she could? It seems the argument can be made that she is more serious about teaching than the guy who can run 5 racks, and is just going to charge you money to fill in the down time between his money game ( with your money).



Just my 2 cents ( okay maybe .75 !)

Jw
 
An instructor is helpful when learning to drive an automobile. The instructor is not required and certainly does not need to be a "professional" driver to teach the fundamentals that will get you on the road. In fact many of us learned to drive with the instructions provided by family members and some people drive better than others as a result.

I grew up in Western NY where kids routinely slid their cars around on the ice in the school parking lot in the winter and later wondered why so many people in the South were tentative on icy roads. Seems that one's experiences also contribute to how well they drive. We all know there are some excellent drivers in the South. Seems their experiences with moving moonshine may have contributed :grin:

The point is the teacher quite often does not have the skills of the student who later succeeds. :cool:

To get on the road that will allow one to play on the national pool circuit a coach is needed. So it seems to me that students have different needs at different times.

Having recently been to a pool school I have come to the conclusion that many of us have done a lot of off road driving and think that we can handle things pretty well. Indeed we do not have any major accidents.

Formal school in the fundamentals of pool playing can be an eye opener for those who would like to move up to the next level. After several years of playing I found that my handicap jumped one level in two weeks in APA and two levels in TAP. RandyG is one of those who will open your eyes. I am sure there are others.

I doubt the instructors will say it because no guarentees can be provided but for the serious player I think that well qualified certified pool instructors can take the serious student from c - b or from B - A within afew weeks of serious application.
 
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poolpro said:
I bet ALL of you ( me too ) have helped another player with some aspect of the game along the way to becoming the level of player you are now. You may have had the best of intentions, and tried your best, but were you really qualified to teach it? I bet ALMOST EVERYONE has passed on some bit of knowledge to another without a "real understanding" of it. You parroted something you heard from another without truly having an applicable understanding of it. It the questions from your student got to be too much it usually resorts to " well, it is kinda complicated, but this is the jist of it, I hope that helps" or something to the matter. Have you really done a service to your " student"? You (we) have held ourselves up for at least that moment as a person qualified to teach that topic without feeling the need to be certified or recognoized, or going through any program at all. At least she went to the trouble of LEARNING correctly BEFORE she went on to show sombody else.
Click to expand...

I don't fault her, but if I were a BCA instructor (I'm not, just a banger) I'd be a little embarrassed and annoyed that certification is apparently so easy to get, instead of trying to defend instructors from all critics.

Let's be real here -- an SL3 should not be an instructor, I don't care how good your teaching skills are.
 
PKM said:
I don't fault her, but if I were a BCA instructor (I'm not, just a banger) I'd be a little embarrassed and annoyed that certification is apparently so easy to get, instead of trying to defend instructors from all critics.

Let's be real here -- an SL3 should not be an instructor, I don't care how good your teaching skills are.
Click to expand...


I understand what you and many others are saying.

I am saying, assume that you have NEVER even picked up a cue. Do you think that she could teach you something?
 
poolpro said:
I understand what you and many others are saying.

I am saying, assume that you have NEVER even picked up a cue. Do you think that she could teach you something?
Click to expand...

I'm willing to concede that, yes.
 
JoeW...I can tell you, with certainty, that every dedicated, passionate instructor out there (including myself), deep in their heart, hopes that their students will (someday) pass them in ability. Sometimes those students go on to become skilled instructors in their own right. If we're honest, how many times has a teacher, in any subject, affected us enough to want to become teachers ourselves (I would bet the farm that 99% of teachers will lay claim to this statement).

Now...about your other statement about time frame. That, quite sincerely, depends on the desire of the student. We see students who assimilate the information very quickly, and see impressive jumps in their own ability (I would call raising up a skill level or two an impressive jump). We also see students who don't have the patience, dedication to practice, or the time to go apply the skills they have learned (in combat). We also see our share of poolplayers looking for the 'magic bullit'. Many of them post here! :eek: :grin: In truth, we cannot make anyone a better player. What we can provide them with, is an educated path for them to follow, where they can teach themselves to become whatever they want to be.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

JoeW said:
The point is the teacher quite often does not have the skills of the student who later succeeds. :cool:


I doubt the instructors will say it because no guarentees can be provided but for the serious player I think that well qualified certified pool instructors can take the serious student from c - b or from B - A within afew weeks of serious application.
Click to expand...
 
pooltchr said:
It's different for each individual instructor. Like Randy said, as an instructor advances through the 4 levels, they are required to demonstrate different skills. I dare say that every master instructor would be well above average as a player. I also suspect if they took all the time they spend teaching, and used it to practice, they would be among the top players anywhere. But then, they wouldn't have time to be instructors. You have to decide your own priorities in life. Most of us instructors have decided teaching takes priority over playing.

Steve
Click to expand...

I really find that scenario you painted quite idealistic. I wish that was the case as well and you wouldn't see me posting in this thread. Just like you and others here I love the game of pool in all forms. Do not be so naive that every instructor has the same love of the game.
 
Scott Lee said:
JoeW...I can tell you, with certainty, that every dedicated, passionate instructor out there (including myself), deep in their heart, hopes that their students will (someday) pass them in ability. Sometimes those students go on to become skilled instructors in their own right. If we're honest, how many times has a teacher, in any subject, affected us enough to want to become teachers ourselves (I would bet the farm that 99% of teachers will lay claim to this statement).

Now...about your other statement about time frame. That, quite sincerely, depends on the desire of the student. We see students who assimilate the information very quickly, and see impressive jumps in their own ability (I would call raising up a skill level or two an impressive jump). We also see students who don't have the patience, dedication to practice, or the time to go apply the skills they have learned (in combat). We also see our share of poolplayers looking for the 'magic bullit'. Many of them post here! :eek: :grin: In truth, we cannot make anyone a better player. What we can provide them with, is an educated path for them to follow, where they can teach themselves to become whatever they want to be.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...


So well stated my friend....SPF=randyg
 
poolpro said:
Let me share a great statement that I remember hearing when I called the cue tech school in Texas. I cannot remember exactly who it was I spoke with, but he was great to speak with, and answered all of my questions perfectly. I was, and still am very intersted in becoming a certified instructor. Too bad it is a bit too far fro me to conveniently attend so far.

Anyway, I let him know a little about me ( I am an APA 7 eyc, etc,) I was basically saying that I felt I was a fairly accomplished player, but in no way a top tier player, but I was willing to do whatever was neceassry to improve.

His response was classic : " Well. we don't really get any beginners here, they already know everything"


It may not be word for word, but you get what I am saying. I still remember how it struck me as being so true.





Anyway to everybody getting worked up over sombody who has the gall to call themself an instructor while being a very low ranked player, think about this:

I bet ALL of you ( me too ) have helped another player with some aspect of the game along the way to becoming the level of player you are now. You may have had the best of intentions, and tried your best, but were you really qualified to teach it? I bet ALMOST EVERYONE has passed on some bit of knowledge to another without a "real understanding" of it. You parroted something you heard from another without truly having an applicable understanding of it. It the questions from your student got to be too much it usually resorts to " well, it is kinda complicated, but this is the jist of it, I hope that helps" or something to the matter. Have you really done a service to your " student"? You (we) have held ourselves up for at least that moment as a person qualified to teach that topic without feeling the need to be certified or recognoized, or going through any program at all. At least she went to the trouble of LEARNING correctly BEFORE she went on to show sombody else.

At least this person is honest about their level of play, and their taget students. They are tested on the fact that they at least have learned and demonstrated their correct understanding of basic principals of pool. They are not like many others who just parrot things they have heard, or make it up as they go along.

I really do not have any problem thinking that this person IS qualified to introduce new students to the game in a correct and organized manner. She has proven to me at least that she has a passion for this game, and a passion to show it to others. She has proven also that she IS concerned about imparting true and correct information with accepted teaching methods. I am sorry, but that is good enough for me!

Now, that is not to say that I would seek out this person for my personal instruction. I also have a feeling that if I did, she would have no problem refferring me to someone who would be able to help me. I also would NOT be suprised if there was something she could show me that would be of some value.

I have many books on pool. Most of them at least touch on the basics. Everytime I got a new book, I did not skip this section. What was the harm in reviewing something I think I already know? Many times, it would clarify something a little more, or get me to look at something I already know in a new way. Never a bad thing.

I always say " the day you declare you are too good to learn something is the day you prove it to be true"



I guess my REAL point in all of this is : With all of the many "teachers" out there spouting off nonsense who never cared enough to take any instruction or go through a program to learn proper teaching methods, WHY single out one who DID care enough about her students to do everything she could to teach the best she could? It seems the argument can be made that she is more serious about teaching than the guy who can run 5 racks, and is just going to charge you money to fill in the down time between his money game ( with your money).



Just my 2 cents ( okay maybe .75 !)

Jw
Click to expand...

I remember the conversation very well. I always wonder why you didn't follow up with our school. You have the makings of a great student and then some. Thanks...Randy Goettlicher
 
I think this thread is indicative of what's wrong with pool's popularity.

This woman obviously started playing pool later in life. She's trying to provide non-threatening resources for folks like her, who might want to start playing. She's promoting the game and trying to bring serious, non-rowdy customers who will appreciate good equipment, good food and safe rooms to play in. What we say we all want.

And because she isn't up to snuff she can't join the club? That's crazy.

Give me 1000 of her around the country in workplaces, retirement homes, schools and country clubs and pool would see a much bigger revival than the thousand people on here trying to shout her down and keep folks like her out. The pie needs to get bigger folks, not more closely guarded.

Yes, she can't teach people beyond a certain point. So what? I don't think she'd try to. I bet once someone moves past where she can teach them, she'll pass them along to Tom Simpson.

I was a member of a national championship collegiate ski team and I didn't start skiing until I was 15 years old. Ancient for skiing. And you know what, my first ski instructor did an excellent job of teaching me the basics. And he actually wasn't that good of a skier I found out when I saw him skiing a year later, when I skied WAY better than he did.

But HE is the one who got me started as a skier. HE spent the time with me. HE is the one who helped me start skiing. Not Phil Mahre, Not Stephen Heinsch or Heidi Bowes, or any of the top skiers who later coached me along.

So I say keep up the good work IDA and bring as many new people to our sport as you possibly can!

Is there anyone on AZB in her area with a connection at a local TV station or newspaper that could run a public interest story about her?

~rc
 
Another thing is that I don't see Ida Mae fishing for students. She has provided basic information on here site. The site clearly says it's for beginners. I bet dollars to donuts that IF she did instruct someone who needed higher level teaching then she would send them to Tom or somebody like him.
 
A person could have multiple physical handicaps and not be able to play at all but still learn the basics and develop teaching skills that could make them a great teacher for beginners all the way up to A players.

If they understand the game and learn the rudiments of stance, grip etc, and possess the desire to help others then they can teach those skills. There's no reason they couldn't help a pro discover what is wrong with their stroke if they know the stroking basics. I have a friend who is a pro golfer. He taught his wife the basics of the swing while she was watching him practice. Soon he was asking her to stand behind him to see if he was doing this or that and after a while she became his coach. She didn't play at all.
 
randyg said:
I remember the conversation very well. I always wonder why you didn't follow up with our school. You have the makings of a great student and then some. Thanks...Randy Goettlicher
Click to expand...


Hello randy, now I know who I was speaking with! I could not remember the name. It is nice to see you on here. That conversation took place before I found this site.

I would absolutely LOVE to attend your school. I have not given up on the idea. I just have not had the opportunity thus far. I am in Florida, and the cost of the trip and expenses, and tuition combined with the time off work has just not been feasable yet. If I can ever get it together, I WILL be there, bet on it! I would be in heaven with the kind of instruction your school provides.

I wish I was closer as to make it more practical for me to attend. I actually am just recently back to work and still just getting back on track financially. So it can't be a reality at the present.

If you ever do any kind of clinics down my way, or have some special packages or something, PLEASE let me know!! I know that Tom Simpson does travel and so does Scot Lee. If any great instructors are down in my neck of the woods, give me a heads up. I am always eager to learn anything that can help my game, especially because my time at the table is not what it used to be. I could use all the help I can get.

Feel free to pm me with any info.


Jason
 
tap, tap, tap! Rep to you sir!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

sixpack said:
I think this thread is indicative of what's wrong with pool's popularity.

This woman obviously started playing pool later in life. She's trying to provide non-threatening resources for folks like her, who might want to start playing. She's promoting the game and trying to bring serious, non-rowdy customers who will appreciate good equipment, good food and safe rooms to play in. What we say we all want.

And because she isn't up to snuff she can't join the club? That's crazy.

Give me 1000 of her around the country in workplaces, retirement homes, schools and country clubs and pool would see a much bigger revival than the thousand people on here trying to shout her down and keep folks like her out. The pie needs to get bigger folks, not more closely guarded.

Yes, she can't teach people beyond a certain point. So what? I don't think she'd try to. I bet once someone moves past where she can teach them, she'll pass them along to Tom Simpson.

I was a member of a national championship collegiate ski team and I didn't start skiing until I was 15 years old. Ancient for skiing. And you know what, my first ski instructor did an excellent job of teaching me the basics. And he actually wasn't that good of a skier I found out when I saw him skiing a year later, when I skied WAY better than he did.

But HE is the one who got me started as a skier. HE spent the time with me. HE is the one who helped me start skiing. Not Phil Mahre, Not Stephen Heinsch or Heidi Bowes, or any of the top skiers who later coached me along.

So I say keep up the good work IDA and bring as many new people to our sport as you possibly can!

Is there anyone on AZB in her area with a connection at a local TV station or newspaper that could run a public interest story about her?

~rc
Click to expand...
 
sixpack said:
I think this thread is indicative of what's wrong with pool's popularity.

This woman obviously started playing pool later in life. She's trying to provide non-threatening resources for folks like her, who might want to start playing. She's promoting the game and trying to bring serious, non-rowdy customers who will appreciate good equipment, good food and safe rooms to play in. What we say we all want.

And because she isn't up to snuff she can't join the club? That's crazy.

Give me 1000 of her around the country in workplaces, retirement homes, schools and country clubs and pool would see a much bigger revival than the thousand people on here trying to shout her down and keep folks like her out. The pie needs to get bigger folks, not more closely guarded.

Yes, she can't teach people beyond a certain point. So what? I don't think she'd try to. I bet once someone moves past where she can teach them, she'll pass them along to Tom Simpson.

- snip -

So I say keep up the good work IDA and bring as many new people to our sport as you possibly can!

Is there anyone on AZB in her area with a connection at a local TV station or newspaper that could run a public interest story about her?

~rc
Click to expand...


Thank you! I agree. I struggled over what to do with Ida. She started late in life, but has more passion for it than almost anyone. In my opinion, her passion over-rode her inexperience and her lack of great athletic ability. She came through the program three times, worked hard, and took it all seriously. I'm proud of her.
 
sixpack said:
I think this thread is indicative of what's wrong with pool's popularity.

This woman obviously started playing pool later in life. She's trying to provide non-threatening resources for folks like her, who might want to start playing. She's promoting the game and trying to bring serious, non-rowdy customers who will appreciate good equipment, good food and safe rooms to play in. What we say we all want.

And because she isn't up to snuff she can't join the club? That's crazy.

Give me 1000 of her around the country in workplaces, retirement homes, schools and country clubs and pool would see a much bigger revival than the thousand people on here trying to shout her down and keep folks like her out. The pie needs to get bigger folks, not more closely guarded.

Yes, she can't teach people beyond a certain point. So what? I don't think she'd try to. I bet once someone moves past where she can teach them, she'll pass them along to Tom Simpson.

I was a member of a national championship collegiate ski team and I didn't start skiing until I was 15 years old. Ancient for skiing. And you know what, my first ski instructor did an excellent job of teaching me the basics. And he actually wasn't that good of a skier I found out when I saw him skiing a year later, when I skied WAY better than he did.

But HE is the one who got me started as a skier. HE spent the time with me. HE is the one who helped me start skiing. Not Phil Mahre, Not Stephen Heinsch or Heidi Bowes, or any of the top skiers who later coached me along.

So I say keep up the good work IDA and bring as many new people to our sport as you possibly can!

Is there anyone on AZB in her area with a connection at a local TV station or newspaper that could run a public interest story about her?

~rc
Click to expand...
Well said, and good for Ida! I hope she doesn't see this thread and get discouraged.

I've taken and given a lot of lessons over the years. Teaching the course at the college union, about 1/4th of the students couldn't consistently shoot an object ball directly into the side pocket from the center of the table (literally, shooting the object ball with the cue stick; not using the cue ball to make the object ball). For beginners like that, it's entirely possible that Ida could do a better job of teaching than I could.

I would assume, or hope, that Ida would charge a lower rate than, say, Randy or Scott for any lessons she might give. There's probably a nice market niche for taking people from "can't shoot a ball into a pocket" to an APA 3 in a cost-effective way.

And for the record, I don't see her actually offering anyone lessons on her site. She's just posting information that appears to be potentially useful for her target audience of beginners.

Cory
 
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