Slow play during league (14.1) nights

M

mnhighrunlist

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am looking for ideas/help. Some of our league matches last too long. We have 3 "tiers" of play with races to 150 for highest rated players, 125 for the middle of the bunch and 100 points for lower rated players. Trouble is, some of the matches take well in excess of 3 hours.

If you play in a league, how is "extreme slow play" addressed? We havent instituted any policy change yet...I would like to hear your thoughts.

Dennis
 
I would try to have a discussion with the organizers of your 14-1 league. If a game taking so long, because *a guy* permanently is needing 2-3 minutes for one stroke-it is horrible for a match-even in a league. In such a case i would vote for using the shot-clock. It is anyway surprising that the quality of a players-game won t go down by using a shot-clock. In most cases it s equal or better.
From my experience *those* guys, who re needing hours for one stroke (felt hours by watching, lol) are just using the time to tease their opponents or just not able to handle the pressure.

just my 2 cents,

lg
Ingo
 
Ratta said:
I would try to have a discussion with the organizers of your 14-1 league. If a game taking so long, because *a guy* permanently is needing 2-3 minutes for one stroke-it is horrible for a match-even in a league. In such a case i would vote for using the shot-clock. It is anyway surprising that the quality of a players-game won t go down by using a shot-clock. In most cases it s equal or better.
From my experience *those* guys, who re needing hours for one stroke (felt hours by watching, lol) are just using the time to tease their opponents or just not able to handle the pressure.

just my 2 cents,

lg
Ingo
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I think most of our players settle in to a comfortable "pace of play" while others evaluate...then reevaluate every shot. This takes time. We thought about shot cloks but never found anything practical.
 
When I ran leagues (14.1 and One Pocket) slow play was addressed at the beginning of the session. All players were warned that slow play will not be tolerated. Match times were recorded and if a pattern started to appear for individual players taking abnormally long times to play a match, that player will not be allowed to return for the next session unless match times were reduced.

We all know who the slow players are. If they aren't monitored, there isn't much recourse. You have to have some substance to back up the claim of slow play.

Player "T" matches up with 4 different players and averages 3 hours per match. The other 4 players match up and aver 2 hours per match. Now there is a case to penalize Player "T". Learn to play faster and you can join the league next session. But you cannot play until then.

For now, you just need to talk to the 'slow player' and tell them they need to speed up their play or there will be consequences.
 
Slow play or not?

Hi everyone!! this is a common problem sometimes but if the skill levels are different then the handicaps should be too. So if the high level finishes in decent time and the mid-level does the same then you just need to reduce the handicap that the lower skill level players go to like maybe ....the top guy in the lower bracket should be a 75 then, just go down from there.

I have ran straight pool leagues in MD for approx 8 years and I've learned alot from it. Hope this helps!! Thanks, Levi.
 
I would think that the lower level players should only play to 50. That would speed up play and might even be a psychological advantage to them as they may eventually get to a point that reaching 50 becomes easy and they could move up to a higher total. On the other hand, a lower player playing to 150 or 100 may become discouraged and develop the mindset that, "It'll take me forever to make that many balls.".
 
Hi,

I also ran a 14.1 league in Phoenix, AZ for 2 years. Here are some observations.

For C level players, having them race to 100 is too long. We used a format that self adjusted as the season went along, but it still started off with handicapping based on a rating system.

I believe for the purposes of 14.1, having a C player (or there abouts) race to around 60 to 70 points is sufficient. Mid level B players went to around 80 to 100 points based on their handicapping. And then the top A players went to anywhere around 100 to 125.

Then for every win, a player's handicap would go up by 3 points. And for every loss, a player's handicap went down by 3 points. This system works REALLY well as everyone's handicap usually drifted to the a pretty accurate position.

Of course, there were still slow matches. Sometimes that's the nature of the game. But there were not that many of them. The league night was usually over in 2 to 2-1/2 hours.

Just some suggestions for you to think about :)

Ray
 
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BigCat said:
Hi,

I also ran a 14.1 league in Phoenix, AZ for 2 years. Here are some observations.

For C level players, having them race to 100 is too long. We used a format that self adjusted as the season went along, but it still started off with handicapping based on a rating system.

I believe for the purposes of 14.1, having a C player (or there abouts) race to around 60 to 70 points is sufficient. Mid level B players went to around 80 to 100 points based on their handicapping. And then the top A players went to anywhere around 100 to 125.

Then for every win, a player's handicap would go up by 3 points. And for every loss, a player's handicap went down by 3 points. This system works REALLY well as everyone's handicap usually drifted to the a pretty accurate position.

Of course, there were still slow matches. Sometimes that's the nature of the game. But there were not that many of them. The league night was usually over in 2 to 2-1/2 hours.

Just some suggestions for you to think about :)

Ray
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Tap Tap Tap
 
mnhighrunlist said:
I am looking for ideas/help. Some of our league matches last too long. We have 3 "tiers" of play with races to 150 for highest rated players, 125 for the middle of the bunch and 100 points for lower rated players. Trouble is, some of the matches take well in excess of 3 hours.

If you play in a league, how is "extreme slow play" addressed? We havent instituted any policy change yet...I would like to hear your thoughts.

Dennis
Click to expand...
If you are going to have handicaps, then I think it is better to have finer gradations. In the leagues around here, the players get ratings (like chess ratings) that go from about 500 to 800. Each week the ratings are adjusted for everyone who played. All winners go up and all losers go down a few rating points each.

Match lengths are determined separately from this table: http://www.sfbilliards.com/14.1_charts.htm

You select the number of points for the better player and the number for the lower player is given by the chart and the difference between their ratings. If you have two players who are slow, just have them go to 80 points for the stronger player. Or 50 if they are real slow.

This system is both simple and fair. It will give much fairer matches than the three-tier system you have now, and it does not require a subjective ratings adjustment -- the adjustment is automatic.
 
Bob Jewett said:
If you are going to have handicaps, then I think it is better to have finer gradations. In the leagues around here, the players get ratings (like chess ratings) that go from about 500 to 800. Each week the ratings are adjusted for everyone who played. All winners go up and all losers go down a few rating points each.

Match lengths are determined separately from this table: http://www.sfbilliards.com/14.1_charts.htm

You select the number of points for the better player and the number for the lower player is given by the chart and the difference between their ratings. If you have two players who are slow, just have them go to 80 points for the stronger player. Or 50 if they are real slow.

This system is both simple and fair. It will give much fairer matches than the three-tier system you have now, and it does not require a subjective ratings adjustment -- the adjustment is automatic.
Click to expand...

Hi Bob,

I remember playing you when I was in Berkeley for Xinet training a few years ago. :) I'm not involved in leages, mostly because of this exact issue. I usually have to handicap my opponent, which I really don't mind. What I do mind is when my opponent takes minutes per shot, making our 150-50 game last three hours.

Typically a 100 point game takes about 1 hour between two good players who shoot at a decent speed, and a 150 game takes about 1.5 hours. That said, the thought of playing someone who shoots so slow that it makes the league match painful is enough to make people not sign up for the next season.

I hope my opinion doesn't spawn a long thread about whether an opponent is playing slow intentionally or not (for some reason Michael Wong of NYC comes to mind). That's really besides the point. I just hate seeing leagues implode because of slow play. I've seen it happen to a couple 14.1 leagues. That the league directors don't seem to be able to "fix" the problem, well, that's reason enough for me to avoid playing in them.

Anyway, I hope my post doesn't come across as being arrogant or snippy...I just hate time bandits. I would rather be a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs than have to match up against one. ;)

PS, hope to match up against you on my next trip to California. I might be heading to Burbank in a few weeks. Maybe I can make a side trip to practice racking for you. Hehe...

Poolmouse
 
poolmouse said:
Hi Bob,

... What I do mind is when my opponent takes minutes per shot, making our 150-50 game last three hours. ...

Maybe I can make a side trip to practice racking for you. Hehe...

Poolmouse
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Hi PM,

As I recall we split in our 14.1 matches when you were here.

I also don't enjoy long matches. I played one match in league which was 140-120 or so and it took four hours (for my 130-120 loss). I was not motivated to return. One solution is to use a chess clock. Slug-sloth players will resist the idea, but I think if either player wants to go on the clock (and supplies one), it ought to be required. A time of 30 seconds per ball plus 10 minutes seems to be about right. The clock we used also gave 19 seconds grace time at the start of each inning so a long series of safes might take no time off the clock.

But in the absence of a clock, it's relatively easy to see who the slug-sloths are and have them go to a smaller total (and their opponent proportionally).
 
Winston846 said:
I would think that the lower level players should only play to 50. That would speed up play and might even be a psychological advantage to them as they may eventually get to a point that reaching 50 becomes easy and they could move up to a higher total. On the other hand, a lower player playing to 150 or 100 may become discouraged and develop the mindset that, "It'll take me forever to make that many balls.".
Click to expand...

Our divisions are 75 points, 100, 125 1nd 150 depending on player rating. Ratings adjust up and down depending on win/loss of games. Funny thing thou, some of the longer games are the higher, not lower rated players. I think once a player develops a style, whether it be slow or fast, it's hard for them to change.
 
Bob Jewett said:
If you are going to have handicaps, then I think it is better to have finer gradations. In the leagues around here, the players get ratings (like chess ratings) that go from about 500 to 800. Each week the ratings are adjusted for everyone who played. All winners go up and all losers go down a few rating points each.

Match lengths are determined separately from this table: http://www.sfbilliards.com/14.1_charts.htm

You select the number of points for the better player and the number for the lower player is given by the chart and the difference between their ratings. If you have two players who are slow, just have them go to 80 points for the stronger player. Or 50 if they are real slow.

This system is both simple and fair. It will give much fairer matches than the three-tier system you have now, and it does not require a subjective ratings adjustment -- the adjustment is automatic.
Click to expand...

We have decided to track length of games, and adjust players "race to" dependant on their playing speed. But I still feel "extreme slow play" has to be addressed promptly.
 
The two leagues we have in the Chicago area (Illinois Billiard Club and Red Shoes Billiards) operate like this. We play two games to our respective handicaps per night. If a player wins both games his handicap goes up 5 points, if he loses both it goes down 5 points, a split means no change. It has worked well - eventually handicaps stabilize around where they should be. We seldom get players cashing twice in a row. A player would have to be improving very rapidly to outrun the adjustments.

Slow play can be a problem and periodically discussion flares up about what to do about certain players. Right now we have a "let's get out at a decent hour" option which allows players to play to a percentage of their handicaps. For example, if you're facing a slow opponent - and we all know who they are - you suggest playing to, say, 80% or even a lower percentage of your respective handicaps. This isn't a perfect solution because your opponent can refuse. We've thought of, but have not yet implemented, a variation where your opponent may not refuse for the second game if the first has taken too long.

Long games can be caused by the style of play as well as by what is conventionally thought of as "slow play". Playing very cautiously - declining to take a break shot you might miss and playing safe instead - can also lengthen games a lot. When both players are doing this it can be a long night.
 
Slow play

Slow play seems to always be an issue we deal with in our 14.1 league. It's a reason some people don't play and I don't blame them. Our lower rated players go to 75, the others 125. We've had matches to 125 last over 5 hours, which is a joke. One small thing we do which seems to help is making the players note the beginning, ending, and elapsed time on the score sheets they fill out for the match. It makes it easy for you to track the times, and if the same guy keeps writing '4 hours' on his sheet at least he knows you're seeing it.
 
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