Slow Play

[chefjeff]

calm down, i know you old folks are afraid you might not be alive by the time i finish my shot

(snip)

lol

The game you're playing makes a difference, too. 8-Ball tends to be slower as the players need to decide what ball to shoot next. 9-Ball requires no such decision so planning time is usually reduced in 9-Ball.

A player's rhythm is totally dependant on his/her's shot routine. If too slow, then I'd say the player has too big of a pre-shot routine and would do better by eliminating some stuff from his/her shot.

Rhythm also depends on where you are in your learning curve. If you're, for example, just learning a new game, extra time is spent on shot selection. But after learning the game, the rhythm should improve. If it doesn't, something's wrong.

My tactic for slow players is when they finally miss, I start to get up to the table, then set my cue back into its holder and go to the bathroom and wait in there for a few minutes. Next time s/he's slow, I do the same thing except I go to the bar and get a drink. Next time it's out to the car for break. Slow players hate it when you're slower than they are.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Razor_Blade]

If someone is a somewhat slow careful player, I don`t generally have a problem with it. On my better days I can usually tell that I am playing a little slower than normal. As the stakes rise most people do tend to start slowing down.

Like several other posters, I refuse to play a super slow shooter. If someone slow plays as a tactic to gain an advantage, I consider it cheating!

 

[sixpack]

Slow players all seem to have the same view, that "my opponent doesn't like it because they are losing". This is absurd. The driver that pulls his car up to a traffic light and, once the light turns green, spends twenty seconds deciding whether to turn left, go straight, or turn right, may ensure navigational accuracy, but there are few who'd argue that it's fair to the cars behind him, forced to wait while he decides. It's really not any different with pool. Those that take forever to pull the trigger on a shot show low regard for other players and place very low value on their opponent's time.

There was an older (mid 80's) player who used to play in Denver who was very slow. I liked him personally, but playing him was very trying on the patience. Once when I played him, he broke and ran out. It took 35 MINUTES! ON A BAR BOX! When he was done he asked me whose break it was...it was alternate breaks and he played so slow that he didn't even realize he broke and ran! The problem was that he was a good enough player that he'd play safe a lot and be able to control the match. It wasn't unusual for his matches to take 2 hours for a race-to-5 9-ball.

When I play slow players, I go into the same mindset as when I go to the post office, DMV or airport. That is someone else is controlling my time and I just accept it and try to do my job, which is win.

Regas

 

[chefjeff]

(snip)

When I play slow players, I go into the same mindset as when I go to the post office, DMV or airport. That is someone else is controlling my time and I just accept it and try to do my job, which is win.

Regas

Good advice and good mind control.

That's why I take a mirror to the driver's license station....so I can watch my wait. Get it? Watch my wait (weight)? ha ha ha

I must be in a story-telling mood...The other night at a bar, the chalkboard had about 10 names on it, waiting to challenge the table. It was about an hour before closing time and apparently whoever was supposed to be shooting wasn't doing so. So my impatient friend went over and started gathering the balls to rack them. As soon as he touched the balls, some drunk comes over and starts complaining that it his game. So my friend tells him to quit yaking and start shooting as there's a long line of others wanting to actually play.

Sometimes a little drastic action gets the game a goin.' Though the bar closed before we could play any.

Jeff Livingston

 

[no-sho]

It doesn't bother me at all if a person plays slow. What bothers me more is the reason I gave up control of the table in the first place. Missed shot or bad position and then had to resort to a safety. If your playing like your supposed too, you are in complete control and their is nothing they can do but sit and watch and keep racking. Now if they rack to slow, I'll rack my own!

no-sho

 

[lewdo26]

i don't mind someone taking a minute or two on CERTAIN shots. now if they do this on EVERY shot, i agree, its uncalled for.

i also think that the shot clock should be a little longer, or at least the extention should be a little longer. how many times have you seen the player :

either get down and shoot real fast when the director gives them the 10 sec warning, so they don't have to use their extention

or

take their extention, and still be thinking about the shot when they get the second 10 sec warning and then have to hurry up and shoot. combined with things like all ball fouls and such, this sometimes puts them in a time crunch to decide on the shot, make sure they are set up correctly, don't touch any balls, do a pre shot routine(which is usually longer since its a harder shot) and then execute.

VAP

I watched Charlie Bryant and Joey K play at Valley Forge, recently. It was an extremely competitive match, and, toward the end of it, Charlie Bryant was taking his time (he was using some kind of rail system). Scott Smith decides to put the shot clock on them, at 45 seconds.

I felt *that* was uncalled for. One, because it wasn't as though the pace of play was *dysfunctionally* slow. Two, because they were actually getting in some pretty amorphous situations on a couple of racks. The balls just rolled that way. But more importantly, because Charlie Bryant was pulling off these *beautiful* safeties going two and three rails and landing the cueball right under a blocker.

It was top notch pool, until the shot-clock started. Then the competitive element turned ugly... Scott Smith always had to go through the embarassment of forcing the players to shoot. Charlie Bryant was punching the rails everytime he missed; Joey K was banging the balls on the table whenever he had to rack. It was good neither for the players, nor for the fans. Meanwhile, the next round wasn't going to start until 1h and 30min later!

What I'd like to know is how did the BCA and WPA come up with the 45 second rule. Does anyone know? Is it purely arbitrary, or did they conduct a survey to find an average based on pro play? Or was it the Texas Express promotion group who wanted to appeal to an audience with A.D.D.?

45 seconds seems pretty rushed even for pros (forget about amateur tournaments). 1 minute sounds more like it.

I'm in no way defending players who take 3 minutes everyshot, though! I think there should be a clear distinction between deliberate players and stallers...

 

[Bob Jewett]

...

45 seconds seems pretty rushed even for pros (forget about amateur tournaments). 1 minute sounds more like it.
...

I timed a local player who played so slowly that no one wanted to get him in a tournament, and no one would play him on the side. He usually took only about 25 seconds per shot. Try actually timing a player who is slow, and I think you will see why 45 is much, much too long for the average shot.

On the other hand, there are much better ways of handling shot clocks than to simply have a 45-second rule. It's unfortunate that the tournaments don't adopt one of those better, fairer methods.

 

[sixpack]

I don't mind...

If someone is a somewhat slow careful player, I don`t generally have a problem with it. On my better days I can usually tell that I am playing a little slower than normal. As the stakes rise most people do tend to start slowing down.

Like several other posters, I refuse to play a super slow shooter. If someone slow plays as a tactic to gain an advantage, I consider it cheating!

...If the person I'm playing is slow nearly as much as I mind if the person playing on the next table is slow and I have to wait for them to get out of the way.

Cheers,
Regas

 

[PoolBum]

I timed a local player who played so slowly that no one wanted to get him in a tournament, and no one would play him on the side. He usually took only about 25 seconds per shot. Try actually timing a player who is slow, and I think you will see why 45 is much, much too long for the average shot.

On the other hand, there are much better ways of handling shot clocks than to simply have a 45-second rule. It's unfortunate that the tournaments don't adopt one of those better, fairer methods.

Your example is actually a very good one. 45 seconds is only much, much too long if you think that 25 seconds on average per shot is slow. I don't think that. It takes about that time to determine your shot, walk around to see an angle, chalk your tip, and then get down to shoot. That is not unreasonable as a pre-shot routine I should think. Many players simply like to get down and shoot one shot after another on the table, and can't understand the routine of someone who is more deliberate. I do think 45 seconds is too long for a routine shot, however, i.e., a shot where the decision about position for the next shot is clear.

As I said, though, I'm more interested in opinions about how a slower versus a faster pace affects one's quality of play, rather than the issue of whether or not a player should shoot more quickly because his opponents don't like to wait. Yes, there is such a thing as taking too long, but I don't think the routine I described is a case in point.

 

[Rackin_Zack]

I timed a local player who played so slowly that no one wanted to get him in a tournament, and no one would play him on the side. He usually took only about 25 seconds per shot. Try actually timing a player who is slow, and I think you will see why 45 is much, much too long for the average shot.

On the other hand, there are much better ways of handling shot clocks than to simply have a 45-second rule. It's unfortunate that the tournaments don't adopt one of those better, fairer methods.

I know, I couldn't even imagine playing Lou Butera. If he was any slower you'd have to commit suicide just to get over the frustration.

 

[drivermaker]

45 seconds seems pretty rushed even for pros (forget about amateur tournaments). 1 minute sounds more like it.

Actually 45 seconds is quite a large amount of time and you have to draw the line somewhere. The match which you cited seemed to be just one of those unusual games. However, if the entire set, game after game was played like this, then there is usually something more than the "unusual" going on. It's two slow pokes dickin' around and it sounds to me like Scott had to make the call, which he did.

You've admitted on here that you're a slow player, so I can see why you feel this way. But the problem with a slow player is they'll use that 45 seconds up on EVERY damn shot if it's available and still want more. It won't be just for the problem shot. It'll be a study of the table, the speed, the angle and the perfect CB position on each shot, regardless of how easy the incoming shot is itself.

In this case, you're pushing for 1 minute. If 1 minute was put in force, then THAT would be too little and it would inch up to 1:15 and then 1:30. That's bullshit! There's never too much time for the turtle player, only too little. As long as there's an extention available per rack, 45 seconds is more than sufficient. How do they even come close to functioning when it's 30 seconds? Well...too bad.

 

[sjm]

...45 seconds seems pretty rushed even for pros (forget about amateur tournaments). 1 minute sounds more like it. ...

I'm fine with one minute per shot.......that is, unless I have to watch. Even 45 seconds per shot is a lethargic pace, likely to find favor only with the insomniacs in attendance.

 

[King Kong]

I do not care about a tough shot and the player taking a little extra time.

I do care when players realize you are operating at optimal speed or pace and malicously and intentional try to slow you down or take you out of your game with unnecessary safeties, extremely slow play & etc. If you can beat my A game, here's to you. If not step aside and stop the "B@LL Sh@T"
Plus, it is a shark move just like waving your arms in front of the shooter. Alot has to be given to the intent and motivation behind the style of play!

That's why when Johnnie Archer and Kid Delicious with that much talent stall its aggrevating because you have to question their motivation behind the stall and you realize the effect it has on their opponents game and their opponents optimal pace.

 

[lcksmith]

slow play

I play better when I play slow, not abnormally slow but at least a walk around the table then figure the shot and get down and shoot, but the problem is that people get cranky when you sit there and torture them and play slow on top of that. For the money that people play for around here I would rather practice by myself or sit on my couch than go to the poolroom and play for two or five a game. Because before I know it I see them start to squirm or say something about the play, because they are get roasted, and then I start to shoot faster and my game goes to crap. My definition of my "slow" play is probably less than thirty seconds.

 

[lukeinva]

I have a straight pool tape I think its from 1991 or 1990 they are on a 45sec clock and the comentators where saying how much better that is they didnt have a match last over 2hrs. I dont mind people taking time on a shot that is difficult but when the ball is straight in and 1ft from the pocket what the hell do you need to think about for 10 mins just get down aim take a couple of strokes and hit the damn ball in!! There was a guy that use to play league he doesnt any more he broke his leg, he played so slow that when he was shooting me and a friend would count his practice strokes. He would stroke any where from 35 to 40 times per shot!!!! It didnt matter how easy or difficult the shot was 35-40 times!!!

 

[chefjeff]

I have a straight pool tape I think its from 1991 or 1990 they are on a 45sec clock and the comentators where saying how much better that is they didnt have a match last over 2hrs. I dont mind people taking time on a shot that is difficult but when the ball is straight in and 1ft from the pocket what the hell do you need to think about for 10 mins just get down aim take a couple of strokes and hit the damn ball in!! There was a guy that use to play league he doesnt any more he broke his leg, he played so slow that when he was shooting me and a friend would count his practice strokes. He would stroke any where from 35 to 40 times per shot!!!! It didnt matter how easy or difficult the shot was 35-40 times!!!

At the risk of repeating myself until no ones cares anymore, I must bring up marketing again...

If a player's goal is to make money on the pro tour, good play is NOT enough. There must be spectators and they must be entertained enough that they will pay for it.

If spectators are NOT entertained, they will not pay. Yes, shoot great pool, but also become an entertainer. How? Well that's an individual decision, but I'd say slow play doesn't cut it. Fats had it right. Jeanette has it right. Keith has it right. That new pool show has it right.

Jeff Livingston

 

[lewdo26]

I timed a local player who played so slowly that no one wanted to get him in a tournament, and no one would play him on the side. He usually took only about 25 seconds per shot. Try actually timing a player who is slow, and I think you will see why 45 is much, much too long for the average shot.

On the other hand, there are much better ways of handling shot clocks than to simply have a 45-second rule. It's unfortunate that the tournaments don't adopt one of those better, fairer methods.

Bob, I'd be interested in hearing about the other timing methods you've alluded to. I understand that 45 seconds on *every* shot is too much. But, like it's been mentioned, some shots will require more.
Maybe there should be a cap which no shot could go over, except once or twice a rack, when the player uses his "credit" for shots he spent less time in taking. But this is rudimentary.

I would still like to understand the details behind the 45 second rule. Who came up with it? How was it agreed upon?

Thank you.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Bob, I'd be interested in hearing about the other timing methods you've alluded to. ...

Players start with a bank of time and get some number of seconds for each shot they take. This was used in some carom tournaments. It requires an extra official and special equipment.

Players play on a chess clock. Each gets X minutes to play the game and can spend or squander the time as they please. This would not be good for one pocket.

 

[cheesemouse]

Unnessessary slow play seems to be the dividing line. What is unnessessary? When someone is in line and they take more than 30 seconds[or longer] to take the shot. If your a 'B' or above player and it takes you a long time to evaluate the table; your slow playing as a stall...period...I HATE SLOW PLAYERS...

 

[lewdo26]

Players start with a bank of time and get some number of seconds for each shot they take. This was used in some carom tournaments. It requires an extra official and special equipment.

Players play on a chess clock. Each gets X minutes to play the game and can spend or squander the time as they please. This would not be good for one pocket.

Now, that's something I can get behind! The problem is how to compensate for the time needed on critical shots with routine shots. That is exactly the assumption in chess tournaments. The "average" chess move should take about 3 minutes (NOT advocating that much for pool! ), but reality is, some moves are automatic, or forced (taking a few seconds), whereas others might take a good 20 minutes.

But truth is, the trend in chess is also to speeed it up ever and ever more with new time controls.