Slow Players and the Shot Clock at Regional Events

GG11

GG11

Kill the Bunny
Silver Member
Hello everyone,

At a recent regional event I play in, there have been issues with slower players and their effect on the efficiency of the chart's progression. Not wanting to upset the regular paced players, a shot clock was utilized to help speed up the dragging matches. This did not sit well with some of the "clocked" players.

It's a tough call as the tour does not want to push players away either for being placed on a shot clock OR for having to wait around for hours for their next match.

I'm just trying to get a sense of what you guys think should be done? The tour is considering the following rule:

It's a 2-day event so:
Day 1 - If a match has not played 10 racks in an hour, the shot clock will be used.
Day 2 - If a match has not played 8 racks in an hour, the shot clock will be used.

On day 2, the tour had to use the shot clock for a match, and a player brought up that Day 2 matches should NEVER have a shot clock. So what's a tour to do about a slow moving tournament? Is putting the players on the clock right or having it take as long as it takes and possibly playing the final at midnight on Sunday right? What do you guys think? What's fair and what isn't fair?

Thanks for the input!!:)
 
Wow GG,

I'm surprised this isn't used more often. I always had a stop watch or two in my computer case. Fortunately, I only had to use it a couple times, and you'd be surprised against who. My formula was there had to be (in a race to 7) at least 8 games on the wires within 45 minutes of the match start time before I would instigate the shot clock. ETA: Of course, just like the WPBA format, either player in a match was allowed to ask for it if she thought the match was taking too long.

I was always hesitant about using it. You have to take into consideration it could cause more misses, but then again, the players would get to the tables faster after those misses.

You should mention this suggestion to the TD.

Barbara

GG11 said:
Hello everyone,

At a recent regional event I play in, there have been issues with slower players and their effect on the efficiency of the chart's progression. Not wanting to upset the regular paced players, a shot clock was utilized to help speed up the dragging matches. This did not sit well with some of the "clocked" players.

It's a tough call as the tour does not want to push players away either for being placed on a shot clock OR for having to wait around for hours for their next match.

I'm just trying to get a sense of what you guys think should be done? The tour is considering the following rule:

It's a 2-day event so:
Day 1 - If a match has not played 10 racks in an hour, the shot clock will be used.
Day 2 - If a match has not played 8 racks in an hour, the shot clock will be used.

On day 2, the tour had to use the shot clock for a match, and a player brought up that Day 2 matches should NEVER have a shot clock. So what's a tour to do about a slow moving tournament? Is putting the players on the clock right or having it take as long as it takes and possibly playing the final at midnight on Sunday right? What do you guys think? What's fair and what isn't fair?

Thanks for the input!!:)
Click to expand...
 
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IMO, people whining about someones playing speed is just another form of "sharking there opponent". I am not a slow player by any means, but just because you, as my opponent feels like I am playing slow, your going to pull out a stop watch on me, LOL. That is funny. This very thing occurred at the last tournament I played, my opponent started ***** and whining about how slow I was playing, I was up 3-0 really feeling the groove, than he started talking crap while I was shooting, and preparing to shoot. We got into an arguement, and boom, I lost all concentration and proceed to lose the match.

I learned from this, next time, I will play my speed, if you think I am playing to slow, than go cry to the TD.

I by no means have anything against the shot clock, or time limit, but this has to be ironed out and explained before the tournament begins so everyone know what is expected.
 
The ultimate solution is to use chess clocks (especially ones with an increment timer).

This gives the ability to set an increment time per shot.
And to give an extra X minutes, which can be used at the player's discretion.
 
I fully agree with the idea of shot clocks. I've used them myself in my own tournaments. It's not fair to have to sit and wait ten minutes for your opponent to do acrobatics, stretch, pull up their pant leg or whatever their ritual is :rolleyes: before they shoot every shot. I think a 30 second shot clock is fair, especially if it is the same slow players over and over again...:frown:
 
GG11 said:
... I'm just trying to get a sense of what you guys think should be done? ...
Click to expand...
I assume you are using double elimination. Pick a different format that isn't so screwed up by one slow player.
 
I am in favor of timing matches that are going too slow. We are all adults. The slower players should understand that it shouldnt take 3 hours for a race to 7. (8 ball or 9 ball)
On the other side of the coin, maybe some slower players are using this to their advantage, knowing it might rattle the faster players. Just my thoughts.
 
So it seems the majority of people are for the shot clock usage. I would have to agree that to move an efficient tournament along, it kinda has to be implemented.

How about on the second day? You know, when all the money is on the line? Unfortunately one player was put on the clock during the second day and it didn't go over well as he believed since it's an important match, there should be exceptions. He made valid arguments. What do you guys think?

Also, at what point in a match can you NOT put someone on the shot clock, like let's say someone is on the hill? Is it wrong to do it then?
 
GG11 said:
So it seems the majority of people are for the shot clock usage. I would have to agree that to move an efficient tournament along, it kinda has to be implemented.

How about on the second day? You know, when all the money is on the line? Unfortunately one player was put on the clock during the second day and it didn't go over well as he believed since it's an important match, there should be exceptions. He made valid arguments. What do you guys think?

Also, at what point in a match can you NOT put someone on the shot clock, like let's say someone is on the hill? Is it wrong to do it then?
Click to expand...

I have seen the shot clock used more often in finals and semi-final matches than not.

There are some players who just play too doggone slow.

At the Glass City Open one year, Danny Basavich was playing very slow during the matches in the early stages of the tournament. Everybody had left the tournament room, as all other matches had concluded, except Danny's. It was kind of slow, but I remained in the tournament room to sweat Danny's match because I am a fan of his. :p

Danny played well at this event, and he ended up coming in second place, against Charlie Bryant. Troy Frank, Corey Deuel, Danny, and Charlie were going to be there for the semifinals, and a shot clock was in full force.

Danny not only adhered to the 30-second shot clock, but he ran a six-pack on Corey Deuel on the TV table. It was remarkable to see Danny play fast and furious and well.

One thing for sure, no matter what rules you enforce, there will ALWAYS be some player or someone in the peanut gallery who won't like the rules. The only thing you should do is administer them fairly across the board, no favoritism, and stick to your guns.

I cannot tell you how many tournaments I have been to that were ruined because of slow players. There is one that comes to mind that was a very high-profile event, and almost everybody in the audience left. They just couldn't take it. It is not fair to the players who have to endure it either.

JMHO, FWIW!

JAM
 
Milo said:
I am in favor of timing matches that are going too slow. We are all adults. The slower players should understand that it shouldnt take 3 hours for a race to 7. (8 ball or 9 ball)
On the other side of the coin, maybe some slower players are using this to their advantage, knowing it might rattle the faster players. Just my thoughts.
Click to expand...


And yes, it is believe that some of the slow players are doing it intentionally. For the most part, I believe it's innocent, but there are definitely a few that it's intentional, not many though.

And someone mentioned about it being the same people. Yes, there has been a trend on the tour of the same people holding up the chart. Slow or not, it's tough trying to run the tour in a timely manner without offending these slower players.
 
JAM said:
Danny not only adhered to the 30-second shot clock, but he ran a six-pack on Corey Deuel on the TV table. It was remarkable to see Danny play fast and furious and well.

One thing for sure, no matter what rules you enforce, there will ALWAYS be some player or someone in the peanut gallery who won't like the rules. The only thing you should do is administer them fairly across the board, no favoritism, and stick to your guns.

I cannot tell you how many tournaments I have been to that were ruined because of slow players. There is one that comes to mind that was a very high-profile event, and almost everybody in the audience left. They just couldn't take it. It is not fair to the players who have to endure it either.

JMHO, FWIW!

JAM
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's funny b/c alot of players that are put on the shot clock seem to play BETTER once they are on the clock b/c they can't over-analyze everything!
 
Bob Jewett said:
I assume you are using double elimination. Pick a different format that isn't so screwed up by one slow player.
Click to expand...

Eh, a slow player can gum up a single-elim tournament just as easily. Granted, it can be worse if said player, in a double-elim, lost his first match.

Chess clocks would be ideal, IMHO, except for two issues:

1) The players have to remember to go tap the button between shots. You think folks are complaining now? Wait 'til this happens and the player getting penalized raises a ruckus because "he shouldn't have to focus on some gadget as well as his game".

2) Do you use the chess clock only when someone complains about slow play? Or do you make the chess clock a mandatory all-matches thing, to be "fair and balanced"? If the latter, then the folks running the tournament would need to invest heavily in chess clocks. The cheapest I'm finding on Froogle is $17.50, in a couple of minutes of poking around.
 
GG,

The WPBA uses the shot clock on the semi and finals matches, so why not use it on the second day matches.

And as far as players who are intentionally slow to thwart their opponents, this is why you should enforce a shot clock. Players should not be allowed to do that. And unintentionally slow players should be pushed to move things along.

Barbara

GG11 said:
And yes, it is believe that some of the slow players are doing it intentionally. For the most part, I believe it's innocent, but there are definitely a few that it's intentional, not many though.

And someone mentioned about it being the same people. Yes, there has been a trend on the tour of the same people holding up the chart. Slow or not, it's tough trying to run the tour in a timely manner without offending these slower players.
Click to expand...
 
I think if the clock is implemented at a reasonable juncture then its fine. I also think that if the players are put on the clock then they should each recieve 1 more 5 minute time out added to whatever time outs they are allowed, so if a real tough situation comes up then they at least have that 5 minute time out to use.
 
sharked by slow play and clock

I was playing someone several levels above me during this tourn. and was up 6-2 in race to 9. My opponent started slowing down big-time when the score was 2-0 and 3-1 in my favor. I understand the need for a shot clock in order to keep a large tourn. moving. We were put on the clock with me leading 6-2. My opponent had no trouble adjusting to the 30 sec shot clock (he has played many times on the clock). This being my first time ever on the clock I started missing routine shots (just couldn't get the clock out of my head) and lost the set 7-9. I understand that I need to practice being on the clock and need to be stronger mentally. However, I had the upper hand in this match and feel my opponent purposely slow played knowing we would be put on the clock. He used this to shark me and knock me off my game. Lesson learned on my part.
 
GuyI-NJ said:
I was playing someone several levels above me during this tourn. and was up 6-2 in race to 9. My opponent started slowing down big-time when the score was 2-0 and 3-1 in my favor. I understand the need for a shot clock in order to keep a large tourn. moving. We were put on the clock with me leading 6-2. My opponent had no trouble adjusting to the 30 sec shot clock (he has played many times on the clock). This being my first time ever on the clock I started missing routine shots (just couldn't get the clock out of my head) and lost the set 7-9. I understand that I need to practice being on the clock and need to be stronger mentally. However, I had the upper hand in this match and feel my opponent purposely slow played knowing we would be put on the clock. He used this to shark me and knock me off my game. Lesson learned on my part.
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Hi Guy,

That was a terrible situation. There was alot of turmoil about whether the shot clock should be used. I'm sorry you had to deal with that. Unfortunately the guy you played does that often. I'm not saying he intentionally slowed down, but he's notoriously slow.

So how would you feel about this new rule?
It's a 2-day event so:
Day 1 - If a match has not played 10 racks in an hour, the shot clock will be used.
Day 2 - If a match has not played 8 racks in an hour, the shot clock will be used.
 
selftaut said:
I think if the clock is implemented at a reasonable juncture then its fine. I also think that if the players are put on the clock then they should each recieve 1 more 5 minute time out added to whatever time outs they are allowed, so if a real tough situation comes up then they at least have that 5 minute time out to use.
Click to expand...
Good point. If going to implement a clock system, I think extra attention should be taken to ensure reasonable paced play, but not make the shot clock the main determinant of the outcome of the match.

It's really unfortunate to see an otherwise good player fall apart because of the timer. Whether it be a person, not be able to execute like they should be able to. Or a person make a really bad decision because of it. Or a person running out of time, have to just hit towards the ball, so as not to give up ball in hand foul from the timer.

Extra attention needs to be taken to ensure that if a long safety battle ensues that the time or lack thereof is not the decider.

It shouldn't start to be like speed pool, which can sometimes look silly or comical. Albeit, it takes some good talent to be able to perform like that.

The main point, is simply to ensure that extremely slow play doesn't hold up the whole tournament. Not force nearly everyone participating to have to take up speed training in order to compete or give the edge to the Luc Salvas or Tony Drago types or ADD types (note: not associating luc or tony to ADD).
 
GG11 said:
Hi Guy,

That was a terrible situation. There was alot of turmoil about whether the shot clock should be used. I'm sorry you had to deal with that. Unfortunately the guy you played does that often. I'm not saying he intentionally slowed down, but he's notoriously slow.

So how would you feel about this new rule?
It's a 2-day event so:
Day 1 - If a match has not played 10 racks in an hour, the shot clock will be used.
Day 2 - If a match has not played 8 racks in an hour, the shot clock will be used.
Click to expand...


Gail ? I am in favor of the new rule, especially if everyone is aware ahead of time. You can?t allow one or two player so slow down the tournament. It?s unfortunate that a player can purposely slow down in order to get the match put on the clock (if that was the case). In my situation once we were put on the clock the advantage swung in his direction. I?m not complaining, I certainly understand why it was done.

I think 10 games day one and 8 games day two is a good idea.
Guy.
 
ScottW said:
Eh, a slow player can gum up a single-elim tournament just as easily. Granted, it can be worse if said player, in a double-elim, lost his first match. ...
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In a two-day tournament, if the players are separated into independent groups on the first day (there are several ways to do this), the snail only has an effect on his group and the other groups can play at a reasonable pace. If the second day is single elimination, and the first round is split in two halves, put the snail and his cousins in the first half, and if you have an extra table or two, they won't hold up the finish of the first round.

I think shot clocks are not so easy to implement. Every time I see a shot clock in action, there are problems. I think it's better to avoid them if you can.
 
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