Small pockets ruining the game

I know golf is a different game physically from pool, especially since weather is a big variable in how you perform.
But the golf associations are actively discussing how to tame the game down because today’s pro golfers are just
overpowering the courses, except for mostly the major championships which pose the toughest playing conditions.

The rules are being changed in a few years so that the golf ball doesn’t go as far. Courses are also being extended in length. Greens and fairways are situating new bunkers and more trees are being planted. Even the heralded design of Augusta has been changed to keep player scores in check. Golf was designed with par being a good score but pros would probably disagree.

There is nothing wrong with professional pool players missing shots because the conditions are tougher, i.e., smaller
pockets. There will be less frequent running the table and in turn, likely more safeties played. But the players should
also have a say about the equipment changing. With billiards, there should be a standard that should be respected.
 
snookered_again said:
"the breaker had ball in hand after the break"

- interesting rule. is that common ?
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Nope, certainly not common. But this game reduced the importance of the break (you still wanted a good break that distributed the balls well), and BIH after the break did not lead to a bundle of B&Rs because it was with all 15 balls rather than 9 or 10.
 
AtLarge said:
Joe Tucker's American Rotation is/was a great game, but maybe not for building a fan base. It is a call pocket / call safe rotation game using all 15 balls. Balls numbered 1 to 10 count 1 point each and balls numbered 11-15 count 2 points each. So each full rack is worth 20 points. A match is a race to a designated number of points, such as 100 or 150, so it involves multiple racks. Breaks were alternated, and the breaker had ball in hand after the break.

Round-robin sessions were played in pool rooms around the country in, roughly, 2012-2015, culminating in regional playoffs and then national championships.
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I remember American Rotation. It was pretty cool. But I'm not a big fan of the math involved with full rack rotation...whether it be American rotation or traditional rotation. I like the simplicity of 9-ball or 10-ball (or 12-ball ;)) such that a rack is won when a single ball is legally pocketed.

Years back I thought up a new game that I coined "Last Ball" that uses all 15 balls. I still think it's a pretty decent idea for a new pool game...

jsp said:
-Rack all 15 balls, completely randomly. (Yes, a game using all 15 balls!)

-The breaker breaks the balls and keeps control of the table regardless of whether he pockets a ball or not. (Totally gets rid of the luck factor of the break.)

-For the first five shots following the break, the players can pocket any ball to keep control of the table. It doesn't matter how many balls are made on the break, the first five shots following the break can be any ball on the table. (Rewards the bigger breaker.)

-After the five initial shots, the players must shoot the remaining balls in rotation. (The first five shots give you a chance to break up any difficult clusters.)

-For the remaining balls required to be shot in rotation, not hitting the lowest numbered ball first results in a foul. (Still incorporates the safety play of 9-ball.)

-All fouls result in BIH to the incoming player.

-Game is won when the last ball on the table is pocketed. (Hence, "Last Ball" is the name of the game.)
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sixpack said:
I agree with this. I played a tournament at a pool hall one time - I had been practicing there on 4.25" pockets for several hours and the TD asked if I wanted to play the tourney. The pockets on the tournament tables were 3 7/8". I played in it.

I realized quickly that I couldn't run out and neither could anybody else. He had me play as a "10" - probably higher than I should have been but ok.

I adjusted my strategy and just let everybody try to run out. Then picked up the pieces and really focused to make a good 9-ball shot. I got pretty far and I beat two other 10s and the TD called me out and said that I was not a "10" because he had seen 10s and I didn't play like them. "10s run out all the time." Um, not on 3 7/8" pockets. Basically people lost to me and complained that I was rated too high. WTF??? "That guy shouldn't be a 10 but he beat me..." Whatever.

I pointed out that I had beaten two of them and he just got pissed and told me I'd be a "9" next time.

Whatever. Boring pool. I don't care who I'm playing on equipment that tight, I'm letting them shoot at the 5 ball. Maybe even the 6 ball. I never went back.

I think the Matchroom events should be 4 1/4" pockets. That seems like the right combination of runout and still have to focus to make difficult shots.
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Couldn't agree more, I'll say I'd like to see 4 1/2" pockets, this allows for risking a shot instead of playing safe & cheating the pocket, it makes playing safe harder, it puts the decisions in the hands of the players instead of size of the pockets.
 
Super tight pockets are a detriment in a few ways

1. They make players of all speeds less confident in their ability.
2. They take away some of the creative shot making of good players because if it's too tough, why not just play safe.
3. Relatively novice players will lose ground because they will start missing a lot of shots that go in on reasonable pockets.

A lot of the tight pocket advocates aren't even the good players, it's the nerds that can't even run 4 balls in a row and they just want tight pockets so that their opponents miss more often.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with 4.75 pockets or even 5 in pockets, although 5 is pushing it. I don't know when the tight pocket obsession started but I will be glad when it's over and people realize that they aren't breaking and running out every time on 4.75
 
NineballTom said:
Super tight pockets are a detriment in a few ways

1. They make players of all speeds less confident in their ability.
2. They take away some of the creative shot making of good players because if it's too tough, why not just play safe.
3. Relatively novice players will lose ground because they will start missing a lot of shots that go in on reasonable pockets.

A lot of the tight pocket advocates aren't even the good players, it's the nerds that can't even run 4 balls in a row and they just want tight pockets so that their opponents miss more often.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with 4.75 pockets or even 5 in pockets, although 5 is pushing it. I don't know when the tight pocket obsession started but I will be glad when it's over and people realize that they aren't breaking and running out every time on 4.75
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This eroneously presumes at least that pool accuracy is at the state of diminishing returns. It isn't. The players on fuzzy margins no doubt are but it ain't the pool.
 
NineballTom said:
Super tight pockets are a detriment in a few ways

1. They make players of all speeds less confident in their ability.
2. They take away some of the creative shot making of good players because if it's too tough, why not just play safe.
3. Relatively novice players will lose ground because they will start missing a lot of shots that go in on reasonable pockets.

A lot of the tight pocket advocates aren't even the good players, it's the nerds that can't even run 4 balls in a row and they just want tight pockets so that their opponents miss more often.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with 4.75 pockets or even 5 in pockets, although 5 is pushing it. I don't know when the tight pocket obsession started but I will be glad when it's over and people realize that they aren't breaking and running out every time on 4.75
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NAILED IT!!!! I play Tap and apa. They love the 4.5 diamonds when they can't even run the 4.75 tables (same cloth etc). LOL I know everyone wants to be a pro but most (me included) have to master the basics first. I don't mind a few 4.5 inch pockets for practicing and the pro players in the establishment. Far more SL 3's, 4's etc than pros anywhere. Your gonna discourage the lower tier people which I would think is a good percentage of the billiard industry. People like to pocket balls and have some minor tournament success. That breeds confidence and purchases, Come to the pool hall more, buy food, buy more shafts, cues, cases etc. 4.75 to 4.5 inch pockets is huge difference and my strategies are wildy different. I play way more conservative on a 4.5 then a 4.75 ie more safeties. I'm gonna keep at the 4.5's tho. Apparently thats the direction we are headed.
 
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Georgiacue said:
NAILED IT!!!! I play Tap and apa. They love the 4.5 diamonds when they can't even run the 4.75 tables (same cloth etc). LOL I know everyone wants to be a pro but most (me included) have to master the basics first. I don't mind a few 4.5 inch pockets for practicing and the pro players in the establishment. Far more SL 3's, 4's etc than pros anywhere. Your gonna discourage the lower tier people which I would think is a good percentage of the billiard industry. People like to pocket balls and have some minor tournament success. That breeds confidence and purchases, Come to the pool hall more, buy food, buy more shafts, cues, cases etc. 4.75 to 4.5 inch pockets is huge difference and my strategies are wildy different. I play way more conservative on a 4.5 then a 4.75 ie more safeties. I'm gonna keep at the 4.5's tho. Apparently thats the direction we are headed.
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This is the fallacy of hitting the pockets. Players must learn to hit the <shots>.
 
Georgiacue said:
Your not wrong. But everyone had to learn how to ride a bike. Nobody starts off at the Tour De France..
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This is true but the tight pockets in question are for pro events and still around 4" + or - . The pretenders fall off and the top 10, 20 are able to deal with it; dog show and all.
The detractors bring up failing rooms. What's that about? A room can install any manner of table they wish. The reasons never end.
 
straightline said:
This is true but the tight pockets in question are for pro events and still around 4" + or - . The pretenders fall off and the top 10, 20 are able to deal with it; dog show and all.
The detractors bring up failing rooms. What's that about? A room can install any manner of table they wish. The reasons never end.
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yeah I kinda got off the subject a little. If you read my first post in this thread it explains my rationale.
 
Georgiacue said:
NAILED IT!!!! I play Tap and apa. They love the 4.5 diamonds when they can't even run the 4.75 tables (same cloth etc). LOL I know everyone wants to be a pro but most (me included) have to master the basics first. I don't mind a few 4.5 inch pockets for practicing and the pro players in the establishment. Far more SL 3's, 4's etc than pros anywhere. Your gonna discourage the lower tier people which I would think is a good percentage of the billiard industry. People like to pocket balls and have some minor tournament success. That breeds confidence and purchases, Come to the pool hall more, buy food, buy more shafts, cues, cases etc. 4.75 to 4.5 inch pockets is huge difference and my strategies are wildy different. I play way more conservative on a 4.5 then a 4.75 ie more safeties. I'm gonna keep at the 4.5's tho. Apparently thats the direction we are headed.
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On a 9’ table 4.5” is too tight for beginners and probably most players, but on a bar box I don’t see much of a problem with that pocket size if it’s also on a table with a quicker cloth.

Thick bar felt where it’s hard to get a spread on the break and other playability aspects (Olhausen death rattle) are more damaging IMO.

For the pros who are always playing on tables with fresh cloth at the major events, it makes sense to have to squeeze the pockets a bit more. Simonis isn’t going to sponsor the “Table that should have been re-felted 6 years ago” 9-ball challenge.
 
Justaneng said:
On a 9’ table 4.5” is too tight for beginners and probably most players, but on a bar box I don’t see much of a problem with that pocket size if it’s also on a table with a quicker cloth.

Thick bar felt where it’s hard to get a spread on the break and other playability aspects (Olhausen death rattle) are more damaging IMO.

For the pros who are always playing on tables with fresh cloth at the major events, it makes sense to have to squeeze the pockets a bit more. Simonis isn’t going to sponsor the “Table that should have been re-felted 6 years ago” 9-ball challenge.
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100% agree.
 
Justaneng said:
On a 9’ table 4.5” is too tight for beginners and probably most players, but on a bar box I don’t see much of a problem with that pocket size if it’s also on a table with a quicker cloth.

Thick bar felt where it’s hard to get a spread on the break and other playability aspects (Olhausen death rattle) are more damaging IMO.

For the pros who are always playing on tables with fresh cloth at the major events, it makes sense to have to squeeze the pockets a bit more. Simonis isn’t going to sponsor the “Table that should have been re-felted 6 years ago” 9-ball challenge.
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4.5 inch pockets are reasonable on 7 foot tables. On a 9 foot table it's a little tight for my liking, I prefer 4.75. Personally I think 4.5 is the very tightest a pocket should be.

I also wish people would go back and watch pool from the 90s or early 2000s, before the tight pocket craze..... way more entertaining to watch
 
jsp said:
Of course players have become significantly better. But that doesn't exactly answer the question, unless we specifically want to see pros run out significantly less on wide open tables. Why adjust the tables such that the pros look like the above-average recreational pool player attempting to run out? If I want to see someone botch a wide open table layout with semi-regularity, then I'll go to my weekly 9-ball tournament. But maybe that is exactly what many want. I know I don't.


Same basic rotation rules as 9 or 10 ball. Just add two more balls. More clusters so that the pros don't run out ALL the time, while upping the tactical/safety play due to the increased congestion. However, once the table becomes wide open, with 4.5" pockets the pros should be able to run the table out more times than not...even with 12 balls on the table. (But I know anything above 10-ball is a mere fantasy of mine.)
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Do people actually play 12 ball? I’ve never seen it played. How would you rack?
 
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