Small pockets ruining the game

Ghost of OBC said:
It remains amazing to see, in 2024, when every other sport on earth is trying to speed things up to match shortened attention spans, that we are talking about slowing the game down. We invented Texas Express rules to encourage more runnouts, and now people are moaning about too many runouts. Anyone remember Seagrams Seven Ball on ESPN? In the late 90s even TE nineball was deemed too slow for TV. Nineball = fast, lots of runouts, lots of break shots. Want to watch something slower? I'm sure there is a one-pocket tournament on YouTube somewhere.
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100% perfect observation.
 
Flakeandrun said:
This is my dad's attitude. Doesn't matter what new adventure, or which player I come up against in my time playing pool, that has got me giddy like a school girl. He couldn't give a rats ass unless I am talking snooker.
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I didn't play much snooker, a shortage of victims in my neck of the woods. I did spend at least two or three hours a day practicing on a wickedly tight snooker table for several years. What I found was that once you found out what the pockets would accept was that snooker was harder than pool but not all that much.

When a pool player first tries snooker they see a football field sized table and balls that don't fall when they shoot them where they are used to and they think snooker is much much harder. If they stay with it long enough to find what the pockets accept it gets a lot easier than when a pool player first tries it. Of course being a young gun with 20-10 vision and nerves of steel didn't hurt!

Hu
 
The_JV said:
There is a tipping point with pocket size. I agree with whomever already mentioned that this is meant to be a test for professionals and not what amateurs should be playing on.

I got to experience the 4"ers at the USopen last year. I'm a decent potter for an amateur and it was a humbling experience. The best adapted and ran deep. That's the point. During any given event, the best on that day should be rewarded and those off pace should be punished. I highly doubt you'll see any pro string together dominance over the course of months with <=4" pockets.

That said, it does get to a point where you start neutering the game. Even the 4" forced seasoned pros to alter the normal approach and adopt a 'boring' game. I'd hate to see the pockets get smaller.
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The catch is that a lot of the big events are still played in pool halls. I don't think you will see any pool halls swap out between smaller and larger pockets for a few events a year. It would be great if somebody figured out a pocket reducer that didn't change play so one table could suit both.

Until then, it doesn't make sense to put in super tight pockets for one or two events a year that probably lose money anyway. From what I have seen most pool halls that put on big events are doing it for the love of the game and losing money. Tighten the pockets and you cut out a lot of the recreational play and pretty much all the date play. More money lost. Just how much is a venue supposed to lose for the privilege of putting on an event?

I am seeing more and more pool halls opening with all seven foot tables and one nine foot big table. I don't like it but I think that is where US pool is going. Simply because of the cost of square footage and us pool players being tight bastards I think we are going to be forced to smaller tables for pool halls to exist. Then you can put in tight pockets or pockets with rounded corners like a snooker table.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
The catch is that a lot of the big events are still played in pool halls. I don't think you will see any pool halls swap out between smaller and larger pockets for a few events a year. It would be great if somebody figured out a pocket reducer that didn't change play so one table could suit both.

Until then, it doesn't make sense to put in super tight pockets for one or two events a year that probably lose money anyway. From what I have seen most pool halls that put on big events are doing it for the love of the game and losing money. Tighten the pockets and you cut out a lot of the recreational play and pretty much all the date play. More money lost. Just how much is a venue supposed to lose for the privilege of putting on an event?

I am seeing more and more pool halls opening with all seven foot tables and one nine foot big table. I don't like it but I think that is where US pool is going. Simply because of the cost of square footage and us pool players being tight bastards I think we are going to be forced to smaller tables for pool halls to exist. Then you can put in tight pockets or pockets with rounded corners like a snooker table.

Hu
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I think "big" may be a relative term.

I know Griff's hosts the under card USopen events and is a pool room. What other room hosts a heavy percentage of the world's best for an event..? Even the Skinny Bob's events, although top tier in NA, aren't world class events.

USopen 9b, International, DDC.... All event spaces filled with tables. I'd be lying if I said I knew all of the events NA residents considered 'big'. What I do know, is that "professional pool" is what maybe a 75/25 split between MR and Predator.
 
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garczar said:
IMO it ruins aggressive run-out style pool. Leads to 'cinch' pool and endless safety battles. I've watched pro pool on super tight tables and to me its boring to watch. You like the sound of your own voice bud. Too many words to not say much. Bye-bye.
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I agree with this. I played a tournament at a pool hall one time - I had been practicing there on 4.25" pockets for several hours and the TD asked if I wanted to play the tourney. The pockets on the tournament tables were 3 7/8". I played in it.

I realized quickly that I couldn't run out and neither could anybody else. He had me play as a "10" - probably higher than I should have been but ok.

I adjusted my strategy and just let everybody try to run out. Then picked up the pieces and really focused to make a good 9-ball shot. I got pretty far and I beat two other 10s and the TD called me out and said that I was not a "10" because he had seen 10s and I didn't play like them. "10s run out all the time." Um, not on 3 7/8" pockets. Basically people lost to me and complained that I was rated too high. WTF??? "That guy shouldn't be a 10 but he beat me..." Whatever.

I pointed out that I had beaten two of them and he just got pissed and told me I'd be a "9" next time.

Whatever. Boring pool. I don't care who I'm playing on equipment that tight, I'm letting them shoot at the 5 ball. Maybe even the 6 ball. I never went back.

I think the Matchroom events should be 4 1/4" pockets. That seems like the right combination of runout and still have to focus to make difficult shots.
 
sixpack said:
I agree with this. I played a tournament at a pool hall one time - I had been practicing there on 4.25" pockets for several hours and the TD asked if I wanted to play the tourney. The pockets on the tournament tables were 3 7/8". I played in it.

I realized quickly that I couldn't run out and neither could anybody else. He had me play as a "10" - probably higher than I should have been but ok.

I adjusted my strategy and just let everybody try to run out. Then picked up the pieces and really focused to make a good 9-ball shot. I got pretty far and I beat two other 10s and the TD called me out and said that I was not a "10" because he had seen 10s and I didn't play like them. "10s run out all the time." Um, not on 3 7/8" pockets. Basically people lost to me and complained that I was rated too high. WTF??? "That guy shouldn't be a 10 but he beat me..." Whatever.

I pointed out that I had beaten two of them and he just got pissed and told me I'd be a "9" next time.

Whatever. Boring pool. I don't care who I'm playing on equipment that tight, I'm letting them shoot at the 5 ball. Maybe even the 6 ball. I never went back.

I think the Matchroom events should be 4 1/4" pockets. That seems like the right combination of runout and still have to focus to make difficult shots.
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Good story.

You realized that it was no longer pool and outsmarted them all.
 
sixpack said:
I agree with this. I played a tournament at a pool hall one time - I had been practicing there on 4.25" pockets for several hours and the TD asked if I wanted to play the tourney. The pockets on the tournament tables were 3 7/8". I played in it.

I realized quickly that I couldn't run out and neither could anybody else. He had me play as a "10" - probably higher than I should have been but ok.

I adjusted my strategy and just let everybody try to run out. Then picked up the pieces and really focused to make a good 9-ball shot. I got pretty far and I beat two other 10s and the TD called me out and said that I was not a "10" because he had seen 10s and I didn't play like them. "10s run out all the time." Um, not on 3 7/8" pockets. Basically people lost to me and complained that I was rated too high. WTF??? "That guy shouldn't be a 10 but he beat me..." Whatever.

I pointed out that I had beaten two of them and he just got pissed and told me I'd be a "9" next time.

Whatever. Boring pool. I don't care who I'm playing on equipment that tight, I'm letting them shoot at the 5 ball. Maybe even the 6 ball. I never went back.

I think the Matchroom events should be 4 1/4" pockets. That seems like the right combination of runout and still have to focus to make difficult shots.
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That just models the spread of competence. The spread of an MR field should be a lot more compact. It should reflect the cutting edge of pool performance.
 
The_JV said:
I think "big" may be a relative term.

I know Griff's hosts the under card USopen events and is a pool room. What other room hosts a heavy percentage of the world's best for an event..? Even the Skinny Bob's events, although top tier in NA, aren't world class events.

USopen 9b, International, DDC.... All event spaces filled with tables. I'd be lying if I said I knew all of the events NA residents considered 'big'. What I do know, is that "professional pool" is what maybe a 75/25 split between MR and Predator.
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A few events in South Louisiana: One in a pool room paid out over $250,000 including calcutta. Another on bar tables pays out over $150,000. There are a few more that top $100,000 pot and calcutta. A few years back they were paying out twice the US Open payout. That is big in my book.

I have watched pros on standard barboxes for decades. One thing I can guarantee, the breaker isn't going to string out many sets. The highest run I have seen in front of me was seven or eight racks of eightball on a barbox. That was by an amateur.

I haven't looked at AtLarge's stat's lately but I suspect they will support what I am saying. The people that take control of a set from the first break are few and far between. People watch the semi's and finals after players have been competing and tuning for days and think the pro's play like that all the time. They don't!

I think this whole squeeze the pockets down thing is a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist.

Hu
 
Flakeandrun said:
4" should be the set standard... Which is what I assumed MR are trying to do (and hope that they are). Who said anything about making them smaller and smaller? Let's make all the equipment smaller? Let's play with marbles and chopsticks? 🤣

3.9" on these UK open tables.. tbh, just looked like someone couldn't hold a tape measure straight... but a fixed, regulated template would be the solution to this problem.

For each of the pocket sizes... 4.5, 4.25 and 4 - Each should have it's own template, and why not host amateur and intermediate tournaments on 4.5/4.25. Anything to do with universalisation I'm all for. What I am not all for, is constant flip-flopping and pointless moaning back and forth...


hahahaha Just enough words to say what I wanted to say? Good banter from you as per 😘
I quite enjoy the safety battles, and I think there was still plenty of entertaining shot making in the UK open. I think the players are still in the balance of the psychological adjustment period.

They switched the TV competition tables here to 4" whether Rasson, Aileex or Diamond. Quite happy to jump on and look forward to figuring them out.
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Standard size pockets are still 4.75” now leaning towards 4.5”. Any other pro sport is played with almost the same equipment/field as amateurs play on. What if golf decided to make the hole smaller? They might lengthen the course, move the pin, and move the tee. 50 yards and a curve is nothing for a professional golfer. They can hit the ball better than amateurs. They don’t make it harder to “pocket” the golf ball, and they don’t narrow the course. Making the hole tiny would change the way players putt. Pro level in any sport is being able to play better than others on standardized equipment. The reason it’s considered “pro” is because you are playing with the best of the best. That automatically makes it harder to win on the same equipment. They don’t change the whole game. Tennis and baseball don’t change anything. All that basketball does is make a 3 pointer a bit longer. The rim is the same size. Football uses a slightly larger ball. They don’t narrow the goal posts.

This subject probably depends on where you live too. In the UK snooker is popular. Maybe that’s why they made the pockets smaller for the UK Open. In America. Guess there is still the Predator tour. Matchroom didn’t get the memo from American sports if they do the same for the US Open. In America, they are pushing for more offense/action and higher scoring games. Someone else already mentioned that. It keeps America interested. Plus, a majority of US players don’t care for snooker. We play pool.

And what I am inferring with this comment is professionals are supposed to make the game look easy. That’s why they are professionals. No need to even have 4” pockets. They should be closer to normal at 4.25” minimum.
 
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The problem with templates is the entity making them have a good chance of being bangers and not knowing how a pocket should play. Then you end up with shit pockets.

Could anyone imagine Emily making the template?

I’d rather have variety, as some will probably end up good.

Pool tables have evolved over hundreds of years to get the pockets decent. Many factors affect them, including the slate shelf, that are not easy to standardize across different manufacturers.
 
So I went ahead and looked it up. Professional snooker players play on pockets that are up to 1/4” tighter. So up to 7% tighter. Shrinking down 4.75” pockets to 4” is 15% tighter. Or in comparison. Playing pool on 4” pockets is like playing snooker with <3” pockets. If you shrink 4.5” to 4 that’s 11%. In snooker that would be around 3-1/8” corners.
 
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Willowbrook Wolfy said:
So I went ahead and looked it up. Professional snooker players play on pockets that are up to 1/4” tighter. So up to 7% tighter. Shrinking down 4.75” pockets to 4” is 15% tighter. So essentially playing pool on 4” pockets is like playing snooker with <3” pockets. If you shrink 4.5” to 4 that’s 11%. In snooker that would be 3-1/8” corners. Why is it ok for pros to play snooker on closer to “normal” equipment than professional pool players?
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Pool pockets are disproportionately bigger and looser in the first place.
 
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