Smoking at tournament matches

[sfleinen]

I genuinely appreciate hearing the opinions of others even if they differ with mine, just as long as they offer their opinions with the same respect that I offer mine.

I have been reading the "debaters" opinions and it almost seems that both side are simply trying to determine who can argue better. That's fine but it wasn't my goal to stir up a hornet's nest about whether people shoule be allowed to smoke in pool rooms.

I wonder how many of the posters in this thread actually participate in pool tournaments? I know some of the posters from having seen them in tournaments that I play in. Once in a while an old stalker like Lou Figueroa will pop out, and try to get under my skin but I'm used to Chicken Little even if he has me on ignore.

I also realize that some people want to extend their agenda to this discussion but primarily I want to see smoking banned from tournament match play. No player should have to be distracted by another person's actions.

Joey:

Actually, I think your thread is well-timed with the time of the year, when several notable tournaments are clustered together. I also think that your intent for this thread was for the well-being of the sport -- I don't think that was ever in doubt.

The problem is that this issue -- smoking and pool -- is a LIGHTNING ROD. Bring this topic up, and you're inevitably going to see the gamut of opinions about it, best intentions for the thread or not. You'll see everything from extremist libertarian views (e.g. the "it's your own fault you found yourself in a smokey poolroom -- you control your own destiny afterall" types), to government-conspiracy types (e.g. "second-hand smoke isn't harmful -- only the government wants you to believe that so that you'll be a nice lemming and follow their plans"), to the downright bizarre that defy reason -- they make your jaw drop in disbelief. Remember, these forums are read by folks from all walks of life. (As an interesting side note, this thread reminds me of the AMC TV series Mad Men, about 1950's product advertising, centered on tobacco. Many of the bizarre views that've been seen in this thread ring some bells, if you've seen any of the Mad Men series.)

But, just bear out the lightning strikes. These are just the last dying gasps of a generation whose time has passed. The future is a no-smoking indoors ban across the country. The machinery is already in place, the process has already started, and it's unstoppable. Just some parts of the country have to catch up, 's all.

Give it time. In the meantime, don't give up -- this issue is a sound one, and as you've noted, some tournament tours have already started addressing it (e.g. Joss).

-Sean

 

[chefjeff]

Unfortunately for your argument, if we were to abide by your rules of not discriminating against smokers, we would be discriminating against non-smokers by forcing them to make decisions they would other wise not make. You claim to be against discrimination, and yet, your solution just yields to more discrimination. Sorry, I guess it wasn't a circular argument, just plain old hypocrisy and double standards.

What force are you talking about?

I NEVER claimed to be against discrimnation. In fact, I praised it and upheld the right to it, right here on this thread-!

And I get acccused of not reading what others say!

Point out ONE hypocritical thing I've advocated. One.

My standard, THE standard of my arguments here are PROPERTY RIGHTS. Every argument I've made here comes from that axiomatic reality.

wow.

Suggestion: Come on over to NPR for a few months and learn a few things about these concepts before speaking of 'em. A lot of wise Persons discuss those often there. There's no crime in not understanding such things, but when you post as if you know something you obviously don't know, it harms you, not me.

Jeff Livingston

 

[inside_english]

There is no evidence of second hand smoke being a health risk...but good try. I'm not going to start on alcohol because I am a firm believer of liberty and although drunks are sometimes obnoxious and violent, I respect their right to treat their body however they like.

It's very simple, if you have a problem with something, then avoid it. Personally, I hate animals. But you don't see me out trying to ban pets. I just choose to not hang out with pet owners for very long...you are more than welcome to choose to not go to a smoking pool room.

You DO NOT have the right to tell anyone what they can and can't do with their property. That includes bar owners. End of discussion. Go lodge a complaint. If the bar owner feels he can make more money by catering to a specific demographic, I'm sure he will do that.

Actually, as customers we DO have the right to have a say in what makes the majority of the clientele happy.

So, if some stubborn room owner wants to keep smoking in effect to appease his regulars while losing a large portion of the business to the non-smokers (who outnumber the smokers, btw), then that is their loss.

Owners who are stubborn jackasses and won't give the MAJORITY of the customers what they want will pay the price.

By the way, your bacon analogy is ridiculous.

And while we're on that subject, do you hate all animals, or only ones that function as pets?

Do you resent seeing eye dogs, rescue dogs etc.?

Since you made such foolish analogies (as most smokers do to justify their foolish choices) I just thought I'd ask.

You are right, it is your body to do with as you please...just dont bring me down with it.

 

[supergreenman]

This post indeed sums it up. The "you have no right to dictate what I can do" smoking cheerleaders are missing this one basic point. And that point is even if the property is yours, when you invite the public into your space, that you are now under legal obligations to provide minimum acceptable standards for common space:

1. Clean and safe air
2. Safe footing (i.e. you can't leave liquid spills on the floor)
3. No dangerous protrusions (i.e. you can't have, e.g., knife blades or live electric cables protruding from the walls or floors)
4. Fire egress (you have to have a certain number of fire exits per popula in the space)
5. ...and a plethora of others (each locality has their own that *adds* -- not subtracts -- from the above minimums).

There are several notable examples where non-adherence to these accepted minimums actually resulted in DEATH on a mass level:

"Happy Land" fire in NYC that killed 87:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire

"The Station" nightclub fire in Rhode Island that killed 100:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire

What do these extreme examples have to do with this thread about smoking? Simple. It's a counter argument against the libertarians that say one can't dictate or enforce rules in a "private club." The answer is, YES, YOU CAN! (I'm sure AZB's own "markgw" would have a LOT to say on this topic about that latter example of "The Station" fire, and what the club owners did wrong!)

The issue about minimum-acceptable clean air is what's being discussed here. The owner of the private club (which a pool hall is NOT, btw -- it's not like you can't walk in from the street or have to have a written invite or a special membership like you do with a private club) still has to provide clean air for the populace of that space -- or else, at a barebones minimum, PROMINENTLY post a public warning about the lack of air quality in that space. This is law in most places.

The situation that JoeyA cites is just unacceptable. I'm a tourney player, and at JoeyA's request in this thread, I'm speaking up about this. I believe I'm fortunate, in that virtually all areas in the Northeast have banned indoor smoking altogether -- to include the aforementioned libertarian's example of "private property" like bars and poolrooms. However, I've been in poolrooms in the Southern and Midwestern states, and have played in the very situation that JoeyA describes -- where smoke drifted over (or was outright exhaled over, as a shark move) to my chair. And where the smoker's timing was impeccable -- that he always found the precise moment to light up a new one right when I was facing him in the midst of a shot. Sure, the libertarians will tell you that I (or you) should just get up off our shot and start over. So, you do this, and what does the smoker do? Find a way to keep their cigarette-holding hand and arm in motion -- moving it back and forth to/from the ashtray, flicking ashes, etc.

I'm with you on this one, Joey. Although I could take the extremist view and say that smoking should be banned nationwide in *all* indoor spaces where a large group of mixed smoking/non-smoking people gather, I won't. Rather, I think a ban on smoking for tournaments is an equitable compromise.

-Sean

Oh there you go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fighting an emotional argument with logic and facts, it just ain't fair.

Good job.

 

[supergreenman]

If your opponent is talking while it's your turn - wait till he's done.
If your opponent blows smoke at the table while you are up - wait til it clears
If your opponent needs to have a loud conversation when it's your turn - wait till he's done.

It's ALL about control. You must maintain control when it's your turn. ANYTHING done to take away from your control must be dealt with. Waiting them out patiently and quietly always works. NEVER get upset or show any irritability. That will give up control.

Ray
(easy to do here)

That's all good suggestions Ray, but I'm not willing to wait until I can breathe properly before I shoot.

 

[supergreenman]

JoeyA...
You KNEW people were smoking. You KNEW it was a health risk. You KNEW you'd smell like an ashtray. But you played the tournament anyway??? Obviously, the incentives in this tournament were worth the discomfort of smokers. And if you have some regrets, then don't do it next time. So kindly, STFU and make better decisions next time.

I have a problem when people use this argument. you are basically saying that smokers have more rights than non-smokers and if non-smokers don't like they should STFU and stay home.

NOW who's rights are being curtailed? You suggest non-smokers only go to places where people don't smoke.

Is there anybody else you'd like to marginalize?

 

[supergreenman]

I recently read that any food that is smoked is a big time carcinogen.???

Actually, food that is smoke flavored is a big time carcinogen. Real smoked meat is has less carcinogens than grilled meat because it's cooked with indirect heat and doesn't get charred.

 

[supergreenman]

Hey Drew,
GFY!

My thoughts exactly.

 

[supergreenman]

OF COURSE it is discrimination.

So is requiring smokers to go outside.

Doesn't the guy who owns the room have that right?

Jeff Livingston

There is a difference between discriminating against people and behaviors.

I don't discriminate against smokers, I don't care what they do when they're not around me. I do have a problem with their behavior which is not just an annoyance but unhealthy as well.

In most countries people are protected from discrimination, their actions on the other hand are subject to the laws of the land.

 

[Sarnia Shorty]

These smoking threads amaze me. You have not been allowed to smoke inside a public building in Ontario for years now. Maybe all the non-smokers should come up to Canada, we could use the extra tournament entries. :thumbup:

 

[Okie]

I'm going all in with this rant.

I believe that all pool tournaments should ban smoking during tournament play even if smoking is legal in the tournament rooms.

My reason is quite simple. I should not have to sit next to someone's stinking cigarette smoldering in an ashtray while they are playing a match. Nor should I have to tolerate smoke clouds blown out over the pool table. This smoking during a tournament match is plain BULLSHIT.

It negatively affects my pool game because it irritates my eyes. If this makes me a whiney baby, then so be it.

I'm also tired of cigarette smoking pool players reaching for their cigarette, just as I am about to shoot a shot and I am facing my opponent from across the table. Same goes for striking a match or using a cigarette lighter. This is all BULLSHIT.

I am really fed up with smoking during a tournament match and I'm declaring war on cigarette smoking during a tournament match. And NO, this is not an effort to get smoking banned from pool rooms. In a pool room, I can always get up and move away from someone who is smoking but in a tournament I am confined to one area and just don't like being distracted by smokers and their smoke.

I realize that a lot of AZBers are not tournament players but if you've ever played in a tournament and don't smoke and your opponent has a cigarette laying in an ashtray and the smoke keeps drifting toward you, well let's just say it's no fun, especially after driving a few hours to play in an event.

I'm not an anti-smoking zealot in general but during a tournament match, non-smokers shouldn't have to deal with these irritations and distractions.

Let's hear your opinions..., especially those of you who play pool in tournaments.

Ask your opponent to stop leaving lit cigarettes at the chair when at the table. If he ignores you, assist him with extinguishing his cigarette while he is away. If he objects then treat him the same as he did you...ignore him.

 

[sfleinen]

These smoking threads amaze me. You have not been allowed to smoke inside a public building in Ontario for years now. Maybe all the non-smokers should come up to Canada, we could use the extra tournament entries. :thumbup:

Altria (formerly known as Phillip Morris) hasn't bought/corporate-acquisitioned Canada yet, that's why.

 

[catpool9]

I was reading an article today (everydayhealth.com) that said suffers of rheumatoid arthritis exposed to second hand cigarette smoke will sometimes cause inflammation flare ups,

and that alone leads to plaque buildup in the artery's and is a precursor to a heart attack.



David Harcrow

 

[KCRack'em]

Suggestion: Come on over to NPR for a few months and learn a few things about these concepts before speaking of 'em. A lot of wise Persons discuss those often there. There's no crime in not understanding such things, but when you post as if you know something you obviously don't know, it harms you, not me.

Jeff Livingston

Now that is one of the funniest things I've ever read on this forum! Thanks for the laugh.
Goodness. You speak of things as if they are absolute when they are no more than your opinion. Understanding the way you and your friends think is the last thing anyone should aspire to. I realize this is your reality, but it never will be everyone's.
By the way, that's the only response you'll get from me.
kv

 

[chefjeff]

Now that is one of the funniest things I've ever read on this forum! Thanks for the laugh.
Goodness. You speak of things as if they are absolute when they are no more than your opinion. Understanding the way you and your friends think is the last thing anyone should aspire to. I realize this is your reality, but it never will be everyone's.
By the way, that's the only response you'll get from me.
kv

Self-ownership IS absolute. To argue it is not is to prove it is. But that is something for NPR, not this thread, I think, thus my SUGGESTION.

How do you know what anyone else should aspire to? I have no clue.



Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

I have a problem when people use this argument. you are basically saying that smokers have more rights than non-smokers and if non-smokers don't like they should STFU and stay home.

NOW who's rights are being curtailed? You suggest non-smokers only go to places where people don't smoke.

Is there anybody else you'd like to marginalize?

You're leaving out the owner of the place where smoking occurs (or not).

Jeff Livingston

 

[KCRack'em]

Oh there you go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fighting an emotional argument with logic and facts, it just ain't fair.

Good job.

The emotional folks read their emotions into the rational arguements posted here. It's easy to do in these types of "conversations" and is the cause of a great many flame wars.
kv

 

[Drew]

Actually, as customers we DO have the right to have a say in what makes the majority of the clientele happy.
Absolutely.

So, if some stubborn room owner wants to keep smoking in effect to appease his regulars while losing a large portion of the business to the non-smokers (who outnumber the smokers, btw), then that is their loss.
Absolutely.

Owners who are stubborn jackasses and won't give the MAJORITY of the customers what they want will pay the price.
Absolutely.

By the way, your bacon analogy is ridiculous.
Definition of exaggeration

And while we're on that subject, do you hate all animals, or only ones that function as pets?
I am not a fan of any animal. They're dirty. They smell. They're high maintenance. They injure and kill people. And I'm allergic to a lot of them.

Do you resent seeing eye dogs, rescue dogs etc.?
I don't resent them. I just don't like being around them. Just like you don't like being around smokers. It's nothing personal. Difference is, I don't run to the state trying to get pets banned. I just avoid them.

Since you made such foolish analogies (as most smokers do to justify their foolish choices) I just thought I'd ask.
I'm not a smoker. And the analogies are right on point. But your emotional whiplash won't let you look at things from an impartial perspective.

You are right, it is your body to do with as you please...just dont bring me down with it.

Nobody wants to bring you down. If you had things your way...then nobody would be able to smoke, because you don't like it. Nobody could have a pet, because I don't like it. Somebody else doesn't like unhealthy food, so bacon and candy go out the window too. Before you know it, the state is controlling every aspect of everyone's life.

Pool rooms would probably be the first places to go in your utopia. There's just too much potential for trouble in pool rooms...and quality of life is no longer important.

 

[Drew]

You're leaving out the owner of the place where smoking occurs (or not).

Jeff Livingston

Business owners have no rights in a socialist state. I think that's what everyone is getting at in this thread.

 

[ShootingArts]

thanks!

I was reading an article today (everydayhealth.com) that said suffers of rheumatoid arthritis exposed to second hand cigarette smoke will sometimes cause inflammation flare ups,

and that alone leads to plaque buildup in the artery's and is a precursor to a heart attack.



David Harcrow

David,

Thanks for telling me one more thing I reeaally didn't want to know!

It bites getting old. If they would just offer a third alternative . . .

Hu