Snake Oil?

P

PaulM

Registered
There are a lot of 'instructors' selling players on various ideas they claim are magic bullets. There are players that swear by them, and just as many that say they don't work. Perfect Aim, CTE, TOI, Hal Houle's systems come to mind. There are also techniques like slip stroke, back hand english, swooping that have proponents and naysayers. Even respected instructors here have opposing views on many things.

I haven't seen most of these things mentioned in the books I've read, nor have those who have taught me ever mentioned most of them. It seems that all the technical analysis of them proves limited if any usefulness of them. If there is a benefit to them, does it outweigh their problems to make them worthwhile? Are they really that much better than basic methods that have been taught for a hundred years?

Are those selling the ideas simply snake oil salesmen feeding on the never ending desire of players to learn that secret magic bullet that will make them a tough opponent? How does a player figure out what's good and what's bad without wasting a lot of money or a lot of time. and possibly hurting their game?
 
PaulM said:
There are a lot of 'instructors' selling players on various ideas they claim are magic bullets. There are players that swear by them, and just as many that say they don't work. Perfect Aim, CTE, TOI, Hal Houle's systems come to mind. There are also techniques like slip stroke, back hand english, swooping that have proponents and naysayers. Even respected instructors here have opposing views on many things.

I haven't seen most of these things mentioned in the books I've read, nor have those who have taught me ever mentioned most of them. It seems that all the technical analysis of them proves limited if any usefulness of them. If there is a benefit to them, does it outweigh their problems to make them worthwhile? Are they really that much better than basic methods that have been taught for a hundred years?

Are those selling the ideas simply snake oil salesmen feeding on the never ending desire of players to learn that secret magic bullet that will make them a tough opponent? How does a player figure out what's good and what's bad without wasting a lot of money or a lot of time. and possibly hurting their game?
Click to expand...

You bring up a good point Paul. I noticed that you joined AZB in Jan of this year. Welcome to the forum.

I am not an instructor. I can only offer you my opinion.

I have been playing pool since 1963. Started at the age of 15. I got a job as a rack boy at a local pool hall. The pay was great $1 per hour. After 4 or 5 hours of work I would get a rack of balls and go on table time ($0.60 per hour). I practiced with the big balls on a 4.5 x 9 snooker table for hours.

Enough about history.
The only way for me to learn was by watching better players and copy what they were doing. Man, did I ever develop some bad habits that lasted for decades and to this day some of the bad habits still pop up.

I always wanted to play golf but wasn't going to start until I was 50. Because of my past experience trying to learn how to shoot pool, the very first thing I did when learning how to play golf was to hire a golf pro for instruction, the best money I ever spent.

It is true that Pool Instruction can be expensive (depending on your income level) but it will knock years off of the learning curve.

The only things that pool instructors can teach you is the basic fundamentals and stress the fact that these fundamentals must be practiced and executed religiously. After a while (maybe a year) the fundamentals will become second nature and performed without conscious thought.

Pool instructors are not selling snake oil. They are selling a short cut to learning a great game in the shortest amount of time.

You can either hire a qualified instructor or keep giving your money to the guy that keeps beating you every week.

I'll go with the instructor, at least I'll walk away with something of value and not have that sick feeling in the bottom of my stomach after loosing.

I notice you live out in AZ (Scott Frost) country. Scott, by admission, has been asked many times to teach folks how to play pool. Scotts reply has been that he cant instruct folks how to play because he doesn't know what he does, he just does it.
I kinda feel sorry for the guy, when he gets into a shooting slump he doesn't know what to fix.

I know this was long. You asked a question that was difficult to answer.

Have fun

John
 
i can also only give my opinion as i am not an instructor
build your game with solid time tested fundamentals
once the house has a cement foundation
you can try some ornamentation if you like
as john said
get lessons from qualified instructors
build a strong base
there is no magic bullet
snake oil doesnt work
jmho
 
Here is a link to an article I wrote in 2009.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/PBReview/Self_Assessment.htm

In essence it says that first you need a reliable self assessment of how well you usually play. There are several ways to do this as indicated in the article.

You can use the results of your self assessment to determine if any of the suggestions you read about are useful to you. The article includes easy (non-mathematical) ways to determine if a new cue, change in stroke, aiming suggestion or any of several types of ideas are of use in your game.

I usually think that when someone has a suggestion that appears to be sincere it is worth testing. The idea may work for other people and not work for me.

I am a scientist by training. I specialized (now retired) in forensic psychology and real world diagnostics. I attempted to come up with a method of determining what is and is not of use to a pool player because there are many conflicting ideas.

You may find some of these ideas useful.
 
I'm not very experienced (or very good) at pool, but I've been a regular here for a while now. I've seen these discussions before.

I would like to suggest one thing...using the term "snake oil" and suggesting that the folks who created these systems are trying to sell a "magic bullet" will not generate a civil discussion.

I've read most things here, and at no time does anyone who is a proponent of such systems suggest that they will be beneficial without lots of work and practice, which is the opposite of a "magic bullet", at least to me. Some will claim that it may shorten your time in elevating your game, but none that I've seen claim that will occur until you have put the work in.

I do not use any of these systems, primarily because I don't have the time that I feel would be necessary to truly incorporate them into my game. Or to at least find out if they could work for me.

You ask a fair question, just in a manner that often creates spectacular arguments on the forums. In this sub forum, that is less likely to occur, and I think you will get some great answers from the instructors here.
 
One Pocket John said:
You bring up a good point Paul. I noticed that you joined AZB in Jan of this year. Welcome to the forum.

I am not an instructor. I can only offer you my opinion.

I have been playing pool since 1963. Started at the age of 15. I got a job as a rack boy at a local pool hall. The pay was great $1 per hour. After 4 or 5 hours of work I would get a rack of balls and go on table time ($0.60 per hour). I practiced with the big balls on a 4.5 x 9 snooker table for hours.

Enough about history.
The only way for me to learn was by watching better players and copy what they were doing. Man, did I ever develop some bad habits that lasted for decades and to this day some of the bad habits still pop up.

I always wanted to play golf but wasn't going to start until I was 50. Because of my past experience trying to learn how to shoot pool, the very first thing I did when learning how to play golf was to hire a golf pro for instruction, the best money I ever spent.

It is true that Pool Instruction can be expensive (depending on your income level) but it will knock years off of the learning curve.

The only things that pool instructors can teach you is the basic fundamentals and stress the fact that these fundamentals must be practiced and executed religiously. After a while (maybe a year) the fundamentals will become second nature and performed without conscious thought.

Pool instructors are not selling snake oil. They are selling a short cut to learning a great game in the shortest amount of time.

You can either hire a qualified instructor or keep giving your money to the guy that keeps beating you every week.

I'll go with the instructor, at least I'll walk away with something of value and not have that sick feeling in the bottom of my stomach after loosing.

I notice you live out in AZ (Scott Frost) country. Scott, by admission, has been asked many times to teach folks how to play pool. Scotts reply has been that he cant instruct folks how to play because he doesn't know what he does, he just does it.
I kinda feel sorry for the guy, when he gets into a shooting slump he doesn't know what to fix.

I know this was long. You asked a question that was difficult to answer.

Have fun

John
Click to expand...



I basically agree with John except for this line:

"The only things that pool instructors can teach you is the basic fundamentals and stress the fact that these fundamentals must be practiced and executed religiously."


We can bring so much more to the table than just teaching fundamentals. For example: I bring competitive experience of over 20 years as a WPBA touring pro to every pool lesson I give. I also bring 23 years of teaching experience, and with that, the ability to troubleshoot players issues quickly and efficiently.

We can also coach players on the mental and emotional aspects of the game. The list of things that instructors can help a player with are endless, depending on the individual instructor and what they can bring to the table.

Some instructors like to teach specific systems, like TOI, CTE, etc. Some don't. It's just their teaching style and a reflection of what they believe.

A player will be able to tell in a fairly short time if someone is selling them snake oil. It doesn't take too long to weed out the con artists. Go with your gut.
 
PaulM said:
There are a lot of 'instructors' selling players on various ideas they claim are magic bullets. There are players that swear by them, and just as many that say they don't work. Perfect Aim, CTE, TOI, Hal Houle's systems come to mind. There are also techniques like slip stroke, back hand english, swooping that have proponents and naysayers. Even respected instructors here have opposing views on many things.

I haven't seen most of these things mentioned in the books I've read, nor have those who have taught me ever mentioned most of them. It seems that all the technical analysis of them proves limited if any usefulness of them. If there is a benefit to them, does it outweigh their problems to make them worthwhile? Are they really that much better than basic methods that have been taught for a hundred years?

Are those selling the ideas simply snake oil salesmen feeding on the never ending desire of players to learn that secret magic bullet that will make them a tough opponent? How does a player figure out what's good and what's bad without wasting a lot of money or a lot of time. and possibly hurting their game?
Click to expand...


You're asking the wrong question. If I were just starting out, and had aspirations of playing at a high level, the question I would be asking is, 'which country is producing the best results, and what is their method'?

As far as I can see, there's only one reason for a plethora of teaching aids.
 
FranCrimi said:
I basically agree with John except for this line:

"The only things that pool instructors can teach you is the basic fundamentals and stress the fact that these fundamentals must be practiced and executed religiously."


We can bring so much more to the table than just teaching fundamentals. For example: I bring competitive experience of over 20 years as a WPBA touring pro to every pool lesson I give. I also bring 23 years of teaching experience, and with that, the ability to troubleshoot players issues quickly and efficiently.

We can also coach players on the mental and emotional aspects of the game. The list of things that instructors can help a player with are endless, depending on the individual instructor and what they can bring to the table.

Some instructors like to teach specific systems, like TOI, CTE, etc. Some don't. It's just their teaching style and a reflection of what they believe.

A player will be able to tell in a fairly short time if someone is selling them snake oil. It doesn't take too long to weed out the con artists. Go with your gut.
Click to expand...


Thanks for jumping in Fran. I'm saved.

If this topic ever comes up again I'll be sure to include your above comments.

I'm glad there is no magic bullet to this game. If there were it would soon get real boring.

There is one other thing that should be mentioned. Practice time. Most folks say that they just don't have the time. Unfortunately, learning this game will, in the short term, take up quite a bit of your spare time. If there is any way a person can manage a table at home this is the best solution for practice. (and cheaper in the long run)

Joe W brought up some good points also.

Have Fun :smile:

John
 
There are many roads to playing great, 99 Shots by Ray Martin has all you will ever need to masters, and the key is practice.

ozonepark_2260_1021073569


Lots of other GREAT POOL Instructional DVD, & BOOKS.

Many instructors who make a living off teaching, are like the guys who use to give riding lessons when I was young at our local equestrian center.

Leading wealthy parents to believe their kid could be in the Olympic on the US Equestrian Team in the Olympics , if they just took more lessons.

Tennis, Swimming, Bowling, Gymnastics, add another word, and there coach's do the same sales pitch.

Again those who excel at most sport pay their dues with practice, practice, and more practice like maybe 12 hours a day.

When other people are out partying, and having fun.
 
Last edited:
PaulM said:
... Are those selling the ideas simply snake oil salesmen feeding on the never ending desire of players to learn that secret magic bullet that will make them a tough opponent? How does a player figure out what's good and what's bad without wasting a lot of money or a lot of time. and possibly hurting their game?
Click to expand...
I think there are some in the business who are selling oil and they know it. Others are selling oil and they believe it is the real thing.

As for how to figure out what's good/bad in what's out there, well.... After playing for 50 years I'm still learning that some of the things I've believed and even taught are bogus. Maybe I'm a slow learner, but I don't think anyone can expect to understand all of billiards in less than a lifetime.

Keep it simple. Work on your weaknesses. Work on your fundamentals. During practice, work to understand the shots. When playing, put away your brain and let your arm do the work.
 
I would have never achieved it on my own, it took that teacher, and many others

PaulM said:
There are a lot of 'instructors' selling players on various ideas they claim are magic bullets. There are players that swear by them, and just as many that say they don't work. Perfect Aim, CTE, TOI, Hal Houle's systems come to mind. There are also techniques like slip stroke, back hand english, swooping that have proponents and naysayers. Even respected instructors here have opposing views on many things.

I haven't seen most of these things mentioned in the books I've read, nor have those who have taught me ever mentioned most of them. It seems that all the technical analysis of them proves limited if any usefulness of them. If there is a benefit to them, does it outweigh their problems to make them worthwhile? Are they really that much better than basic methods that have been taught for a hundred years?

Are those selling the ideas simply snake oil salesmen feeding on the never ending desire of players to learn that secret magic bullet that will make them a tough opponent? How does a player figure out what's good and what's bad without wasting a lot of money or a lot of time. and possibly hurting their game?
Click to expand...

I believe the only "Magic Bullet" to play advanced pool is hitting the cue ball precisely and consistently. Without this "bullet" your "pool playing gun is firing blanks".

Once you can hit the cue ball where you "think you are" and it is consistent, and accurate there are advanced systems like TOI that will work wonders in reaching the next level. Without understanding spin and deflection (by using them consistently) you will be limited and again, your gun will not be firing "effective ammunition" (staying with the bullet analogy).

Fundamentals are vitally important and rarely discovered without some expert guidance. My first Pro Tournament I had wins over Efren Reyes, Jimmy Rempe, Earl Stickland, Mike Lebron and I STILL knew my fundamentals were flawed. So I did what I needed to do and got an expert teacher to help me and I'm VERY glad I did because it led to a brief period as the #1 Ranked Pro Player in the World.

That was my goal and I would have never achieved it on my own, it took that teacher, my martial arts teachers, my communication teachers and all my worldly teachers through life to help. I'm very grateful to all of them and especially my most consistent teacher......the Game.

'The Game is the Teacher'
 
Last edited:
jeffj2h said:
Say it ain't so Bob! I've been reading your material for 25 years. What did you teach me that's bogus ;)
Click to expand...
I'll be in Texas in a few weeks. Maybe a lesson is in order. Warning: no refunds for falsities.:wink:
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think there are some in the business who are selling oil and they know it. Others are selling oil and they believe it is the real thing.

As for how to figure out what's good/bad in what's out there, well.... After playing for 50 years I'm still learning that some of the things I've believed and even taught are bogus. Maybe I'm a slow learner, but I don't think anyone can expect to understand all of billiards in less than a lifetime.

Keep it simple. Work on your weaknesses. Work on your fundamentals. During practice, work to understand the shots. When playing, put away your brain and let your arm do the work.
Click to expand...

Man, ain't this the truth.

That's what is so cool and frustrating about pocket billiards the learning never stops. Even after over 50 years of trying to learn this game.

John
 
Last edited:
Welcome to Texas, Bob,

Bob Jewett said:
I'll be in Texas in a few weeks. Maybe a lesson is in order. Warning: no refunds for falsities.:wink:
Click to expand...

Welcome to Texas, Bob, let me know if you need to "compare notes". Texas is an awesome state, the pool scene needs a "jump start" though, but that only takes the right boost. I'm starting some free clinics in DFW to start advancing the game and maybe stimulating some pool room's business.

Aloha
 
CJ Wiley said:
Welcome to Texas, Bob, let me know if you need to "compare notes". Texas is an awesome state, the pool scene needs a "jump start" though, but that only takes the right boost. I'm starting some free clinics in DFW to start advancing the game and maybe stimulating some pool room's business.

Aloha
Click to expand...

But, like California, Texas is too big. I was just in Houston for the Snooker Nationals, but they're both too far from Dallas for a casual visit.
 
Thanks for the replies.

I've taken some lessons and read a handful of recommended books, none of which I'd call snake oil. It's all been the standard core things to learn that are widely available. I'll stay focused here and keep putting in the table time.

The self assessment looks helpful. That's now high on my ToDo list. Thanks Joe.
 
best in the world, and maybe even Texas!"

Bob Jewett said:
But, like California, Texas is too big. I was just in Houston for the Snooker Nationals, but they're both too far from Dallas for a casual visit.
Click to expand...

I understand, didn't know what part of Texas you were in.

There was a time I had a friend that was playing in a small town in west Texas - after beating all the local players one of them said to his girlfriend "you see that guy over there, he's one of the best in the world, and maybe even Texas!" :thumbup:
 
There are a lot of 'instructors' selling players on various ideas they claim are magic bullets. There are players that swear by them, and just as many that say they don't work. Perfect Aim, CTE, TOI, Hal Houle's systems come to mind. There are also techniques like slip stroke, back hand english, swooping that have proponents and naysayers. Even respected instructors here have opposing views on many things.

I haven't seen most of these things mentioned in the books I've read, nor have those who have taught me ever mentioned most of them. It seems that all the technical analysis of them proves limited if any usefulness of them. If there is a benefit to them, does it outweigh their problems to make them worthwhile? Are they really that much better than basic methods that have been taught for a hundred years?

Are those selling the ideas simply snake oil salesmen feeding on the never ending desire of players to learn that secret magic bullet that will make them a tough opponent? How does a player figure out what's good and what's bad without wasting a lot of money or a lot of time. and possibly hurting their game?
Click to expand...

Paul, you are lumping a number of ideas together. One that I find objectionable is "Even respected instructors here have opposing views on many things."

TOI = (in part, not all) Favoring the side of the cue ball that on a missed shot produces the least issues that can crop up with english, besides slowing down the cue ball from running wild and loose. Few instructors would have a problem with this methodology.

Perfect Aim = (in part) optimizing vision methods and alignment choices for various cuts. Few instructors have a problem with the concept and would love to have far more students work on eye positions than do now.

Same with things like slips strokes and BHE. Do a lot of pros use a slip stroke these days? Not at all. But most teachers wouldn’t change an amateur if they had one to find their final hand position for the backstroke. Same with BHE if you can still get position on the balls.

Even some of Hal Houle’s methods can be sorted into pivoting to find the approximate geometric aim points or fraction aim methods. Again, not my favorites but…

Why don’t we change what you wrote to “The danger sometimes lies in saying my way is the only way or best way and will work for 100% of students.” That’s snake oil for sure unless “the way” has to do with fundamentals.

The other thing you said that I take issue with was “Are they really that much better than basic methods that have been taught for a hundred years?” Some of these ARE the methods that players have used for a long time including players like Mosconi and Greenleaf. They did okay IMHO.

Thanks for hearing me out.
 
BilliardsAbout said:
Same with things like slips strokes and BHE. Do a lot of pros use a slip stroke these days? Not at all. But most teachers wouldn’t change an amateur if they had one to find their final hand position for the backstroke. Same with BHE if you can still get position on the balls.
Click to expand...

I say most pros nowadays use some form of forward slip stroke as part of their follow throught
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top