Snooker

If Ronnie o took a year to practice straight pool do you think he could run 200+? 300+? 400+? It seems like a lot of them would make good straight pool or even one pocket players


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Not necessarily. Straight pool and one pocket aren't built around "accurate" potting in the snooker or even 9 ball sense of the word. Very little long shots and such (though being accurate always helps, of course). Those games are centered on strategy and imagination (which is why old pros like Mike Sigel, Ray Martin and Allen Hopkins can still compete with young guns at the highest level), and you don't learn to become a consistent 100 ball runner overnight, I don't care how good your shotmaking mechanics are. You need to have a prolific knowledge of thousands and thousands of shots, from caroms, banks, combinations, kisses, and know how to manufacture break balls and pick apart the rack, which bears some resemblance to snooker, but straight pool is snooker breakbuilding amplified to 100 (since you have to do it rack after rack after rack). In the Oliver Ortmann snooker match I mentioned, he read a combo in the pack of reds the snooker commentators couldn't even see. They expected Ortmann to play it like a snooker player would (expected him to play safe or another shot, IIRC). Ortmann made the shot and opened the reds and cleared the frame. That's the kind of imagination I'm talking about that you just don't pick up after a couple of years.

And running 300+ on tougher equipment is harder than a 147 break any day of the week. Very unlikely Ronnie could achieve something like that coming to the game this late.

If any snooker pro were to have a shot at making some genius runs, it'd probably be Steve Davis. Ronnie might be the snooker king, but I think Davis (with his knowledge of games other than snooker. Has an English Billiards background, etc) is a better all-around cue sportsman.
 
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Not necessarily. Straight pool and one pocket aren't built around "accurate" potting in the snooker or even 9 ball sense of the word. Very little long shots and such (though being accurate always helps, of course). Those games are centered on strategy and imagination (which is why old pros like Mike Sigel, Ray Martin and Allen Hopkins can still compete with young guns at the highest level), and you don't learn to become a consistent 100 ball runner overnight, I don't care how good your shotmaking mechanics are. You need to have a prolific knowledge of thousands and thousands of shots, from caroms, banks, combinations, kisses, and know how to manufacture break balls and pick apart the rack, which bears some resemblance to snooker, but straight pool is snooker breakbuilding amplified to 100 (since you have to do it rack after rack after rack). In the Oliver Ortmann snooker match I mentioned, he read a dead combo in the pack of reds the snooker commentators couldn't even see. They expected Ortmann to play it like a snooker player would (expected him to play safe or another shot, IIRC). Ortmann made the shot and opened the reds and cleared the frame. That's the kind of imagination I'm talking about that you just don't pick up after a couple of years.

And running 300+ on tougher equipment is harder than a 147 break any day of the week. Very unlikely Ronnie could achieve something like that coming to the game this late.

If any snooker pro were to have a shot at making some genius runs, it'd probably be Steve Davis. Ronnie might be the snooker king, but I think Davis (with his knowledge of games other than snooker. Has an English Billiards background, etc) is a better all-around cue sportsman.

Here's the vid. (the situation I'm talking about starts at 9:25). Fascinating stuff. The commentators had no idea until Ortmann cued it up, and then one of them compares it Jean Van De Velde, as if Ortmann was going for something impossible, improbable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InY14qyP4Uo

Not bad for a guy who primarily plays on kiddie tables with bucket pockets ;)

(note: He also roasted Steve Davis in the earlier round. But yeah, pool players are children compared to the otherwordly cueing majesty of snooker players).
 
snooker player's punch and stun stroke than the pool player's power stroke.


The whole of what you just said is spot on in my opinion. The main difference in playing styles comes down to this portion of your quote. The differences in stroke mechanics and playing styles stem from the different equipment being used, along with the difference in rules.


Snooker is fantastic, and it is a blast to play. Pool is great as well. If the OP can un-bunch his panties and spend more time on the table enjoying both... we'd all be better off.
 
The whole of what you just said is spot on in my opinion. The main difference in playing styles comes down to this portion of your quote. The differences in stroke mechanics and playing styles stem from the different equipment being used, along with the difference in rules.


Snooker is fantastic, and it is a blast to play. Pool is great as well. If the OP can un-bunch his panties and spend more time on the table enjoying both... we'd all be better off.

Another thing worth mentioning is that I think another reason snooker players have seemed to make a decent transition to pool is because their stroke mechanics can now work in pool given how much the equipment has "improved," from the cloth, rails, etc.

That tight, punchy snooker stroke wouldn't work too well in getting cueball action on the tables/cloth of the 60's, 70's, 80's, etc. Earl, Miz, Hall, etc, and those guys had to balance power and accuracy with their strokes. I think Jim Rempe said all the time he spent developing a powerful stroke became useless once the cloth/tables "improved" and he lost his edge.

Today, you can prioritize accuracy over power, because anyone with a decent, even poor stroke can draw the ball around the table on modern equipment. Magic Racks also narrow the edge in the break department.

I lament this in a way. I fear the new breed of pool players will all start to have the same robotic mechanics because the snooker mechanics are more consistently accurate, but far less powerful, which is no longer an issue given the state of modern equipment, from tables to cues to tips, etc.
 
Another thing worth mentioning is that I think another reason snooker players have seemed to make a decent transition to pool is because their stroke mechanics can now work in pool given how much the equipment has "improved," from the cloth, rails, etc.

That tight, punchy snooker stroke wouldn't work too well in getting cueball action on the tables/cloth of the 60's, 70's, 80's, etc. Earl, Miz, Hall, etc, and those guys had to balance power and accuracy with their strokes. I think Jim Rempe said all the time he spent developing a powerful stroke became useless once the cloth/tables "improved" and he lost his edge.

Today, you can prioritize accuracy over power, because anyone with a decent, even poor stroke can draw the ball around the table on modern equipment. Magic Racks also narrow the edge in the break department.

I lament this in a way. I fear the new breed of pool players will all start to have the same robotic mechanics because the snooker mechanics are more consistently accurate, but far less powerful, which is no longer an issue given the state of modern equipment, from tables to cues to tips, etc.

Did you really just describe a snooker stroke as tight and punchy?

And please find me a player with a truly poor stroke that can CONSISTENTLY draw the cue ball around the table.
 
Did you really just describe a snooker stroke as tight and punchy?

And please find me a player with a truly poor stroke that can CONSISTENTLY draw the cue ball around the table.
For part 1, perhaps he has never watched Trump or Robertson play. For part 2, some might point to Allen Hopkins.
 
Did you really just describe a snooker stroke as tight and punchy?

And please find me a player with a truly poor stroke that can CONSISTENTLY draw the cue ball around the table.

Compared to the smooth loose power strokes of Earl, Archer, Bustamante, Reyes, SVB, and the top 9 ball players throughout history, yes I do. You don't see a lot of wrist action in snooker strokes and long bridges. Even Steve Davis commented on the differences

STEVE DAVIS: I haven't changed my actual technique for the game of nineball pool, although I could understand how your technique for the game of nineball would need to be different if you were playing it from scratch as nineball is more of a stroking game. Snooker is more of a power and punching game so if you were designing a nineball stroke from scratch you could easily look more like a nineball player with a different stance and a more 'feeling' action. The snooker stance is essentially designed for accuracy over distance and I've stuck with my snooker stance, although I know full well that to play nineball properly you have to smoothly stroke the ball and you cannot play the stun and screw game that is the snooker action.

I should've been more clear that I meant people with poor POWER strokes can now get more action on the cueball than ever before because of the evolution of equipment. You used to really have to juice the cueball to get it around. Now you can take a lot of power off and still get the same action.

Whether this is good or bad is up to you.
 
For part 1, perhaps he has never watched Trump or Robertson play. For part 2, some might point to Allen Hopkins.

Oh yeah. Great power strokes. But that style is usually the exception in snooker much like Hopkins' is the exception in pool with that strange style of his.
 
I believe Ronnie did try a little pool a while ago. If I remember right, he was on the European Mosconi Cup member some years back.
 
I believe Ronnie did try a little pool a while ago. If I remember right, he was on the European Mosconi Cup member some years back.
He also played in one of the IPT tournaments. I think he finished in the money. He didn't seem well prepared for pool, but he did OK.
 
tony drago won the 2003 9 ball world pool masters, pretty impressive feat imo for a snooker player competing against world class pool players. although that tournament i dont think had that many players in comparison to other larger international tournaments...
 
tony drago won the 2003 9 ball world pool masters, pretty impressive feat imo for a snooker player competing against world class pool players. although that tournament i dont think had that many players in comparison to other larger international tournaments...
Here are Drago's pool wins according to Wikipedia:

World Pool Masters – 2003
Mosconi Cup – 2007 & 2008
French Open – 2008
Predator International 10-ball Championship – 2008

I think I saw him 2010 in Las Vegas where he had some impressive wins.
 
Here's the vid. (the situation I'm talking about starts at 9:25). Fascinating stuff. The commentators had no idea until Ortmann cued it up, and then one of them compares it Jean Van De Velde, as if Ortmann was going for something impossible, improbable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InY14qyP4Uo

Not bad for a guy who primarily plays on kiddie tables with bucket pockets ;)

(note: He also roasted Steve Davis in the earlier round. But yeah, pool players are children compared to the otherwordly cueing majesty of snooker players).

Anyone drawing conclusions from exhibitions is a fool.

And how slow pool players are! The fluency and speed of snookers players is one of the reasons they make pool players like ortmann look so pedestrian. If pool players got the hell on with it occasionally, they may be able to compete.
 
Anyone drawing conclusions from exhibitions is a fool.

And how slow pool players are! The fluency and speed of snookers players is one of the reasons they make pool players like ortmann look so pedestrian. If pool players got the hell on with it occasionally, they may be able to compete.

Oh, it's you. The pool hater.

I agree about the exhibition part, but the same can be said of short race pool tournaments, like the Mosconi Cup and such.

If professional pool had money and a strict Q school qualifying process, which would bring more Asian and Filipino players out into the fold, no snooker convert would make the tour just like no pool player (Pag and Corey) has been able to crack the professional snooker circuit. Melling, Drago, Davis, et al aren't among the the 200 best pool players in the world, and that's being generous (Maybe Melling, but he's a rotation and 8 ball specialist).

When there was "perceived" big money in pool (the IPT), the snooker players got ****in' waxed. The legendary Jimmy White couldn't win a match and managed two break and runs. But yeah, "He just doesn't practice it enough!" I thought 8 ball was a children's game and those buckets pockets are impossible to miss on?

I've also read nonsense from you about how much better English snooker cueists are than American pool players. I sort of agree that American cue skill has dropped off, since the sport isn't as popular as it once was and it's more of a hobby for most people, even serious players don't devote that much time to it (how many great American pool players have real jobs?), but I remember Jim Rempe going over there in 85 and wiping the floor with all the snooker and English champions at the English 8 ball World Championship, a field that included the great Steve Davis, Eddie Charlton, and Joe Barbara. English 8-ball is basically snooker with 8 ball rules on a tiny table (the table they used was actually an 8 x 4, large than the 6 x 3 typically used). Davis should've won that tourney blindfolded.

In the interview with Rempe after the match, he said every time he broke he ran out. I thought pool players couldn't play on rounded, tiny pockets, as I've heard it said ad nauseum.
 
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Here are Drago's pool wins according to Wikipedia:

World Pool Masters – 2003
Mosconi Cup – 2007 & 2008
French Open – 2008
Predator International 10-ball Championship – 2008

I think I saw him 2010 in Las Vegas where he had some impressive wins.

Compare Drago's winnings from snooker
https://www.snookerisland.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=3284
Player Career Highest Event Season Stage
Compiled in 2012
Drago is # 23

and his winnings from pool
http://www.azbilliards.com/people/1276-tony-drago/
 
Oh, it's you. The pool hater.

I agree about the exhibition part, but the same can be said of short race pool tournaments, like the Mosconi Cup and such.

If professional pool had money and a strict Q school qualifying process, which would bring more Asian and Filipino players out into the fold, no snooker convert would make the tour just like no pool player (Pag and Corey) has been able to crack the professional snooker circuit. Melling, Drago, Davis, et al aren't among the the 200 best pool players in the world, and that's being generous (Maybe Melling, but he's a rotation and 8 ball specialist).

When there was "perceived" big money in pool (the IPT), the snooker players got ****in' waxed. The legendary Jimmy White couldn't win a match and managed two break and runs. But yeah, "He just doesn't practice it enough!" I thought 8 ball was a children's game and those buckets pockets are impossible to miss on?

I've also read nonsense from you about how much better English snooker cueists are than American pool players. I sort of agree that American cue skill has dropped off, since the sport isn't as popular as it once was and it's more of a hobby for most people, even serious players don't devote that much time to it (how many great American pool players have real jobs?), but I remember Jim Rempe going over there in 85 and wiping the floor with all the snooker and English champions at the English 8 ball World Championship, a field that included the great Steve Davis, Eddie Charlton, and Joe Barbara. English 8-ball is basically snooker with 8 ball rules on a tiny table (the table they used was actually an 8 x 4, large than the 6 x 3 typically used). Davis should've won that tourney blindfolded.

In the interview with Rempe after the match, he said every time he broke he ran out. I thought pool players couldn't play on rounded, tiny pockets, as I've heard it said ad nauseum.

Right. As i said, forget all about drawing conclusions from exhibition type matches. Rempe has about as much chance of winning a proper english pool championship as you do.

And are you really suggesting you'd win the MC if the races were longer? :eek:
 
Right. As i said, forget all about drawing conclusions from exhibition type matches. Rempe has about as much chance of winning a proper english pool championship as you do.

And are you really suggesting you'd win the MC if the races were longer? :eek:

That wasn't an exhibition Rempe won. It was the World Championship. You obviously know English 8 ball can be slow and the Final took near 3 hrs. They just weren't banging balls around to put on a fun show for the crowd.

Skip to 1 hour 40 min of this vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbo3S-HuWfU

I clearly see a Yugo World Pool Championship banner hanging there and the announcer saying, "Jim Rempe is the World Champion."

And wasn't Joe Barbara the best English 8 ball pool player of the 80's?

And Rempe, probably never having played the game much, smoked him on his home turf.

I await your excuses.

As for the last question, no. Our "golden generation" was probably the 80's/90's, with prime Earl, Archer, Sigel, Varner, Rempe, Hall, Davenport, etc. Like I said, given the state of American professional pool, there doesn't seem to be much incentive to take the game up for a talented kid, whose parents would probably push him elsewhere into something more financially secure.

The fact a near 60 year old Earl (when he's in stroke and emotionally stable) is probably America's best player after SVB should tell you something. Corey Deuel can be considered, but he seems more a "dabbler" these days than someone like Appleton, who is a student of the game and seems to devote every waking hour to getting better.

Maybe Landon is the next generation (still young), but who knows.
 
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Jim Rempe's win was remarkable and may have played a role in transforming English 8 ball with his hyper-aggressive style of play, in an era where playing from behind, utilizing roll up snookers was the norm.

Back in those days, the focus was more on strategy than attempting speculative / challenging outs. His use of spin and using the rails, was somewhat revolutionary in the day.

Today's English Pool games are much more offensive than in the past, due to new rules and a new breed of players who have developed offensive skills.

Colin
 
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Jim Rempe's win was remarkable and may have played a role in transforming English 8 ball with his hyper-aggressive style of play, in an era where playing from behind, utilizing roll up snookers was the norm.

Back in those days, the focus was more on strategy than attempting speculative / challenging outs. His use of spin and using the rails, was somewhat revolutionary in the day.

Today's English Pool games are much more offensive than in the past, due to new rules and a new breed of players who have developed offensive skills.

Colin

Hi, Colin. Nice to see you again. We used to talk way back when in the Non-Pool section.

Do you know if there's a full length video of Rempe's win anywhere? Youtube brings up zilch.
 
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