So I Joined the APA.. BIG Mistake

I think the reason for the severity of the rule is to prevent teams, top heavy with respect to skill level, from purposefully playing all their higher skill level players and then "oops" at the end. Given the points system, the high skill level teams could theoretically play 3 7's and win those matches 3-0 each scoring 9 points and making it impossible for the other team to win regardless of forfeits (which I believe are 2-0 each). That's 8 ball. Same argument though for 9 ball.

Whether you consider APA a recreational league or not, everyone still wants to win. One rule isn't any more important than another rule. Let's say one of the opponents that night inadvertently nudged the CB prior to shooting. Would you have said "Oh, no big deal, just go ahead and shoot."? I doubt it. The rule book is pretty small, it really isn't that difficult to know all the rules.

The OP made a mistake, now sack up and take it like a man. Learn from it and please don't blame the APA. I struggle to understand how the APA is at fault in the least in this situation.
 
lorider said:
chris.... i recall when you started that thread about you were gonna join the apa although you did not like the league. i thought it was pretty cool that you were gonna give the league a chance despite your apparent dislike of it.

according to your last post in that thread and most of what you posted in this thread..... every thing was going pretty smooth...until you met this one person. this one person who took advantage of a rule you broke.

it seemed like you and your team was enjoying your selves kicking this other teams ass ...until you made a mistake . now you wanna take your marbles and go home because he did not agree to over look the rule you broke.

thats very uncool chris. you also tried to get his team to turn against him. that is not cool either.

with all that said let me state that i have overlooked that rule several times during regular session. it even cost me a loss the last night of regular session knocking me out of play offs and let the other team gain 1st place and getting an auto berth in the ltc's. this was in 9 ball.

how ever i did use that rule to my advantage in my 8 ball ltc's when the opposing captain went over the 23 rule.

if every one quit a league every time they encountered an ass hole ......well only ass holes would be playing in it.

using your logic... i guess every one in nashville should have quit bcapl the night one of their players pissed in one of the pockets because he was upset he lost.

maybe i should quit the shriners because i met an asshole.

maybe i should never go to the vfw again because i met an asshole.

maybe i should quit this forum because some act like real assholes on here..

well ...you get the picture.:grin-square:
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Great post!
 
Back in the days when I was a team captain, the 23 point rule was in the forefront of our decisions. I couldn't have imagined anyone going over, and it never happened.

More recently, my last team captain went over without realizing it, causing us to be out of the running for playoffs. Some teammates were so upset that they formed their own team. Guess what they mistakenly did?

In the first case, the other team knew it was going to happen and let it, bringing it up not after the first break of the last game, but when it came time to sign the paperwork. In the second case, neither captain realized it, paperwork was signed, and only when the points weren't on the next week's total did anyone know what happened.

I am now happy to play the local weekly in house. I actually feel more like a pool player now. At the place that I practice, I get told I should play in a league, as if that is the be all, end all of pool.
 
I run a APA team and regardless of how badly you guys were beating us, I would have let you switch to the lower player.

Well, technically, I wouldn't have let you make the fifth throw in the first place if it had put you over the stupid rule.

Why? Because I enjoy playing in a league for us who aren't very good at pool and because you play against teams in your division multiple times per session. The entire night is farrrrrrr more enjoyable if opponents have mutual respect for each other than assume everybody is a crook or trying to hustle them out of their bank roll.

I'll also put forth that my team is fairly competitive and has gone to nationals twice and is a regular staple in the APA tournament path to nationals. We play to win, but we are also polite and respectful to others.

Full Disclosure: I know this viewpoint is counter to many of the folks who use the AZB forums and you can own your opinions on the matter and i'll own mine. I'm not trying to change anybody to suit my beliefs.
 
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I have to share a couple of mine.

I played in a tournament once, and I played APA, at the time. I think I was ranked as a 3 in the APA, and they used that ranking for the handicap tournament. Okay.

I was gambling cheap with somebody probably $5/game 9-ball prior to, or during the tournament (between rounds). Anyway, one of the folks I beat in the tournament came over and watched for a while then went over to the directors desk and came over to where I was playing, and told me that I would playing the rest of the tournament as a 5 instead of 3. :eek:

I didn't make up the rules, and I was a 3 in APA at the time. But because I was gambling and beat a local I was raised. How chicken-$hit is that?:angry:

The second story was the first time I played in the Indiana State Tournament.
Like some has mentioned, I really like the group or league we played in and as far as I knew we really didn't have many arguments or problems (Valley not APA).

Again, I wasn't a strong player, but I did like to play. For my first 8 ball match in State tournament, I broke and ran out playing 8 ball. After I made the 8 on the run out, the guy jumped up and said you lose, you didn't mark the pocket. I agree, I didn't, but in our league we played in town, we didn't mark it as we trusted each other. So I basically was trained not to mark it, but I knew it was the rule, and had nobody to blame but myself.

Again, I thought it was chicken-$hit, but finally realized these examples showed me what league play was all about.

Ken
 
It seems to me that the OP had an expectation that the opposing team would give them a mulligan.

Here is how I see it. The rule was broken. Lets look at another rule to put this in perspective. Lets say a player was lining up a shot and accidently touched the cue ball. It moves not more than an inch. Would you let them put it back or take BIH? I think most people would take the BIH since it was a blatant violation of the rules.

How is this situation any different? A rule was broken and the opposing team realized it and called them out.

I fail to see how this is the fault of APA. Rules are in place for a reason. If you are playing BCA it is a foul to place your hand in a pocket. You should call that foul because the rules prevent cheating.
 
Ken_4fun said:
I have to share a couple of mine.

I played in a tournament once, and I played APA, at the time. I think I was ranked as a 3 in the APA, and they used that ranking for the handicap tournament. Okay.

I was gambling cheap with somebody probably $5/game 9-ball prior to, or during the tournament (between rounds). Anyway, one of the folks I beat in the tournament came over and watched for a while then went over to the directors desk and came over to where I was playing, and told me that I would playing the rest of the tournament as a 5 instead of 3. :eek:

I didn't make up the rules, and I was a 3 in APA at the time. But because I was gambling and beat a local I was raised. How chicken-$hit is that?:angry:

The second story was the first time I played in the Indiana State Tournament.
Like some has mentioned, I really like the group or league we played in and as far as I knew we really didn't have many arguments or problems (Valley not APA).

Again, I wasn't a strong player, but I did like to play. For my first 8 ball match in State tournament, I broke and ran out playing 8 ball. After I made the 8 on the run out, the guy jumped up and said you lose, you didn't mark the pocket. I agree, I didn't, but in our league we played in town, we didn't mark it as we trusted each other. So I basically was trained not to mark it, but I knew it was the rule, and had nobody to blame but myself.

Again, I thought it was chicken-$hit, but finally realized these examples showed me what league play was all about.

Ken
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ken...you like many others tend to dislike certain leagues or leagues in general due to your interaction with certain people associated with those leagues.

you are certainly entitled to your opinion but i think it is wrong to base a negative view of an entire organization based on the actions of a few.

yes there are assholes in leagues. what gets me is people say ...avoid the assholes in leagues...just go to the pool hall and play serious players. well guess what ? there are serious players in every pool hall that can turn into assholes when they do not get their way.

how many threads have been started on here complaining about some pros being assholes ? why don't you just bash the whole pool environment in general ...because it is full of assholes from the top down.
 
I dont play in the APA or the BCA. Its because of so many rules that are supposed to be taken to each match. But hey, I do go to Vegas to play and I come out ahead by doing that for myself. Setting aside all the fun I do have while there.
I do remember playing in the APA when it first started.. my Member #15 is on the wall with my [picture and year. I left the APA because the new operators were always siding wwith the "Snitty Whiners" I left after 2 seasons and then tried to go back but was sent up to be a ranking of a 7 so I couldnt play much.. just watch. When someone couldnt play I was added and then the Over the 23 came in and we lost. I quit and the teams that I had sponsored also left and they come to my house to play and indulge in better fun then buying in to have fun. Guess that rule really killed it for many of the players i spoke to about it. They no longer will even try to play unless it is free. I play all over but mainly in tournaments and that is only if the pay out is high for a win. No APA rules just strictly BCA Rules ,,, "Call Pocket"
Better luck on the #23 Rule... but I read it and it is indeed there. What a learning Rule to be handed on a playing night.
 
The OP made way too many mistakes to put that much blame on anyone but himself. But, here are the bylaws in our league:

In the spirit of good sportsmanship, the King County APA suggests that the complying team inform the violating team of the 23-Rule and allow the violating team to re-throw a non-violating player if possible.

There is also this quote from the National rules:

Relax, enjoy yourself and play within the Spirit of the Rules as well
as the written rule. It is impossible to cover every situation 100%
with rules. Common sense must prevail. Teams that try to gain
advantage by creating their own interpretations are subject to
sportsmanship violations. Win at the table and not from the chair is a
generality that promotes harmony, camaraderie and good times.
That’s what this League is all about.
 
"The overall team skill limit rule is 23. If the 23-Rule is broken, the offending team would receive zero points for that League match."

"The nonoffending team would receive all points they won plus 15 points for the match in which the 23-Rule was broken and any subsequent matches"

I still think the largest point of contention is the interpretation of the rule. When reading the rule, why does it say the non offending team gets 15 points for the match in which the rule was broken and any subsequent matches if they had already received points from ALL of the matches played that night?
 
TheNewSharkster said:
It seems to me that the OP had an expectation that the opposing team would give them a mulligan.

Here is how I see it. The rule was broken. Lets look at another rule to put this in perspective. Lets say a player was lining up a shot and accidently touched the cue ball. It moves not more than an inch. Would you let them put it back or take BIH? I think most people would take the BIH since it was a blatant violation of the rules.

How is this situation any different? A rule was broken and the opposing team realized it and called them out.

I fail to see how this is the fault of APA. Rules are in place for a reason. If you are playing BCA it is a foul to place your hand in a pocket. You should call that foul because the rules prevent cheating.
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Even with the circumstances described if the cue ball is accidentally touched DURING WEEKLY PLAY I'll usually just ask the shooter to put the ball back and do it again (if they haven't already picked it up and given it to me) unless questionable behavior and circumstances dictate otherwise. During Cities (LTC) or NTC or playoff or trophy night or something like that where there is no wink and nod, or captains agreement the rules all become a but stiffer and there's a little more on the line. I feel I owe it to my team to be a bit more of a dick and not give their points away, and besides I'm not asking the opposing team to do anything I wouldn't do myself or I'm not expecting anything more from them that I'm not willing to do and that is to just follow the rules.
The thing that Tom Tao (from Tacoma?) has going for him in this instance is that the OP broke the rule. However it's interpreted by the LO and the League Rep with regard to point distribution the rules favor The Sinister Tom Tao. Rotten Tom wasn't dirty, he was just (from the OP's perspective) an ass in the way he handled it. I'd love to hear Rotten Tom's side of this
 
Jmarcum,

Team A is at 21 points and throws a 3 in the fifth match puting them over the 23 point rule. Team A gets ZERO points for the night and Team B gets everything that they EARNED until that match and then 15 ponts for the fifth match. If Team A had gone over the 23 point rule in the fourth match, then team B would recieve 15 points for the fourth AND the fifth matches.
 
lorider said:
ken...you like many others tend to dislike certain leagues or leagues in general due to your interaction with certain people associated with those leagues.

you are certainly entitled to your opinion but i think it is wrong to base a negative view of an entire organization based on the actions of a few.

yes there are assholes in leagues. what gets me is people say ...avoid the assholes in leagues...just go to the pool hall and play serious players. well guess what ? there are serious players in every pool hall that can turn into assholes when they do not get their way.

how many threads have been started on here complaining about some pros being assholes ? why don't you just bash the whole pool environment in general ...because it is full of assholes from the top down.
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No, I think YOU missed the point, or at least my point.

My point is when I have gambled at pool halls (cheap like $10-20 game one pocket and $5-10 a game 9 ball), I cant ever remember having an issue.

What I have found it was nitty $hit like what I posted above ONLY during league play.

Folks involved in league play, seem to play these silly games. That has included several league operators too.

I am not saying all players or all leagues, but I am saying that the issues I noted above were concerned with leagues.

If you read that I am saying that ALL league players are this way, then you must have misread my post.

Ken
 
Thanks Billiardsfan, that makes sense. I don't agree with it, but now I understand how they come up with zero points for the rule breaking team.
 
jmarcum1984 said:
"The overall team skill limit rule is 23. If the 23-Rule is broken, the offending team would receive zero points for that League match."

"The nonoffending team would receive all points they won plus 15 points for the match in which the 23-Rule was broken and any subsequent matches"

I still think the largest point of contention is the interpretation of the rule. When reading the rule, why does it say the non offending team gets 15 points for the match in which the rule was broken and any subsequent matches if they had already received points from ALL of the matches played that night?
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Is "zero points for that league match" referring to the whole night or just one person playing? They call one person playing a match too... "15 points for the match in which the 23-Rule was broken and any subsequent matches"

I would not interpret this to mean that they lose all points for the night. Where in the book do they say that a league match consists of five matches? If that is what they intend, why don't they call it a night instead of a match, or come up with a different term for when each player plays?
 
Celophanewrap said:
Even with the circumstances described if the cue ball is accidentally touched DURING WEEKLY PLAY I'll usually just ask the shooter to put the ball back and do it again (if they haven't already picked it up and given it to me) unless questionable behavior and circumstances dictate otherwise. During Cities (LTC) or NTC or playoff or trophy night or something like that where there is no wink and nod, or captains agreement the rules all become a but stiffer and there's a little more on the line. I feel I owe it to my team to be a bit more of a dick and not give their points away, and besides I'm not asking the opposing team to do anything I wouldn't do myself or I'm not expecting anything more from them that I'm not willing to do and that is to just follow the rules.
The thing that Tom Tao (from Tacoma?) has going for him in this instance is that the OP broke the rule. However it's interpreted by the LO and the League Rep with regard to point distribution the rules favor The Sinister Tom Tao. Rotten Tom wasn't dirty, he was just (from the OP's perspective) an ass in the way he handled it. I'd love to hear Rotten Tom's side of this
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Personally speaking I will let some thing go during league play. For example, if my opponent forgot to mark the pocket in 8ball when the intention was obvious. However, I do not have any sort of expectation that somebody would give me the benefit of the doubt if I were to be the person who forgot to mark the pocket. Furthermore, if I did have that expectation it would be totally unfair to the whole league.

Bottom line. The OP shit the bed and doesn't want to take responsibility for his actions. This has nothing to do with APA. Every single type of organized pool playing is going to have rules.
 
Even if you "forgot" throwing your 5 was going over what I don't get is...

You're beating them the first 4 matches by a lot. For the fifth match they throw a 2 and you throw a 5 when you have a 2 available!?! That's where the poor sportsmanship began.
 
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WoodyMPW said:
Even if you "forgot" throwing your 5 was going over what I don't get is...

You're beating them the first 4 matches by a lot. For the fifth match they throw a 2 and you throw a 5when you have a 2 available!?! That's where the poor sportsmanship began.
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Folks:

Assuming that APA's "Equalizer" handicap system is taken at its marketed value -- i.e. it's supposed to equalize the match irrespective of each player's skill level -- I'm not sure it matters if someone put up a "2" and the other team put up a "5".

Correct me if I'm wrong -- don't both teams' captains huddle with each other over the scroresheet in the player match-up process? In other words, if team 999's captain put up a "2" and Chris puts up a "5," isn't team 999's captain present and watching when Chris's pencil is put to paper and writes in the player's name and skill level "5"?

I mean, it's not like Chris was trying to "get one over" on team 999. That team's captain was right there, watching as Chris filled-in his pick to match team 999's "2". But, team 999's invertebrate captain was certainly trying to "get one over" on Chris when he kept his mouth shut, and waited with baited breath until the break shot for the match occurred. It'd be one thing if team 999 didn't know that Chris's team was over the 23 cap, and then later discovered it after the match began (which methinks is the spirt of the "if breakshot has already occurred, then a forfeit is the automatic result" rule). But that's not what apparently happened here -- quite the contrary, and in a very opportunistic way.

There's an old expression that, no matter where you are or who you are -- holds true. And that's "The Spirit of the Law vs. The Letter of the Law":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law

Normal people who are good, social beings adhere to the former (the spirit of the law). The latter -- the letter of the law -- is the scapegoat of those always trying to "get one over" no matter what.

Anytime you're dealing with a handicapped league, you're going to attract the latter. Anytime you leave food out on the kitchen counter, you're going to attract pests.

-Sean <-- who ran large handicapped leagues for years, and swears he'll never do it again
 
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sfleinen said:
Folks:

Assuming that APA's "Equalizer" handicap system is taken at its marketed value -- i.e. it's supposed to equalize the match irrespective of each player's skill level -- I'm not sure it matters if someone put up a "2" and the other team put up a "5".

Correct me if I'm wrong -- don't both teams' captains huddle with each other over the scroresheet in the player match-up process? In other words, if team 999's captain put up a "2" and Chris puts up a "5," isn't team 999's captain present and watching when Chris's pencil is put to paper and writes in the player's name and skill level "5"?

I mean, it's not like Chris was trying to "get one over" on team 999. That team's captain was right there, watching as Chris filled-in his pick to match team 999's "2". But, team 999's invertebrate captain was certainly trying to "get one over" on Chris when he kept his mouth shut, and waited with baited breath until the break shot for the match occurred. It'd be one thing if team 999 didn't know that Chris's team was over the 23 cap, and then later discovered it after the match began (which methinks is the spirt of the "if breakshot has already occurred, then a forfeit is the automatic result" rule). But that's not what apparently happened here -- quite the contrary, and in a very opportunistic way.

There's an old expression that, no matter where you are or who you are -- holds true. And that's "The Spirit of the Law vs. The Letter of the Law":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law

Normal people who are good, social beings adhere to the former (the spirit of the law). The latter -- the letter of the law -- is the scapegoat of those always trying to "get one over" no matter what.

Anytime you're dealing with a handicapped league, you're going to attract the latter. Anytime you leave food out on the kitchen counter, you're going to attract pests.

-Sean <-- who ran large handicapped leagues for years, and swears he'll never do it again
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EXACTLY. The other captain already knew the only person to throw was their 2, but watched gleefully as they put a 5 to pick up an easy win by forfeit. I'd rather lose 10 weeks in a row playing a match than winning 10 matches by forfeit.
 
sfleinen said:
Folks:

Assuming that APA's "Equalizer" handicap system is taken at its marketed value -- i.e. it's supposed to equalize the match irrespective of each player's skill level -- I'm not sure it matters if someone put up a "2" and the other team put up a "5".

Correct me if I'm wrong -- don't both teams' captains huddle with each other over the scroresheet in the player match-up process? In other words, if team 999's captain put up a "2" and Chris puts up a "5," isn't team 999's captain present and watching when Chris's pencil is put to paper and writes in the player's name and skill level "5"?

I mean, it's not like Chris was trying to "get one over" on team 999. That team's captain was right there, watching as Chris filled-in his pick to match team 999's "2". But, team 999's invertebrate captain was certainly trying to "get one over" on Chris when he kept his mouth shut, and waited with baited breath until the break shot for the match occurred. It'd be one thing if team 999 didn't know that Chris's team was over the 23 cap, and then later discovered it after the match began (which methinks is the spirt of the "if breakshot has already occurred, then a forfeit is the automatic result" rule). But that's not what apparently happened here -- quite the contrary, and in a very opportunistic way.

There's an old expression that, no matter where you are or who you are -- holds true. And that's "The Spirit of the Law vs. The Letter of the Law":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law

Normal people who are good, social beings adhere to the former (the spirit of the law). The latter -- the letter of the law -- is the scapegoat of those always trying to "get one over" no matter what.

Anytime you're dealing with a handicapped league, you're going to attract the latter. Anytime you leave food out on the kitchen counter, you're going to attract pests.

-Sean <-- who ran large handicapped leagues for years, and swears he'll never do it again
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Each team has a scoresheet that they keep score on. So, Team A says, "We put up Leinen!" Team B counters, "We put up Dub." Since the 23 rule is a major component of the APA, it's usually on the top of a captain's mind, especially with a roster full of mid/high players. I'm sure the other team expected a 2 to be thrown and simply waited until the lag to disclose the fact that they broke the handicap limit. The players lag, to find out who will be "on top" on the scoresheet(an inning is completed when the bottom player finishes a turn). Heck, you could pencil everything in on the scoresheet, not bother to tally the numbers and get a surprise when your LO calls you or you see that you got zero'd for that week.

Iirc, our area has a mulligan. You get the match forfeited the first time, the second time you get the night forfeited, I think. Again, since this is a cornerstone of the league, it's pretty rare for people to forget, especially twice. Also, if you throw in a way such that you would not be able to meet the numbers even if all players had been there, I think the entire night is a forfeit(iow, you can't throw your 4 highest players just to take a forfeit when you reach 23 point in 4 matches). It's sort of along the same idea of having relatively close matches. You can't stack a team with 3 strong masters("good" 7's) and a 2 to steamroll 3 matches and maybe get a 4th, without having to play 5 players.

The times I've got to Vegas, I've made sure that I conformed to all rules, because I'm supposed to know them and at that level I expect people to be watching for everything. Fortunately, it was all for singles, so I haven't had to watch for team problems.
 
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