So I Joined the APA.. BIG Mistake

[justadub]

Each team has a scoresheet that they keep score on. So, Team A says, "We put up Leinen!" Team B counters, "We put up Dub." Since the 23 rule is a major component of the APA, it's usually on the top of a captain's mind, especially with a roster full of mid/high players. I'm sure the other team expected a 2 to be thrown and simply waited until the lag to disclose the fact that they broke the handicap limit. The players lag, to find out who will be "on top" on the scoresheet(an inning is completed when the bottom player finishes a turn). Heck, you could pencil everything in on the scoresheet, not bother to tally the numbers and get a surprise when your LO calls you or you see that you got zero'd for that week.

Iirc, our area has a mulligan. You get the match forfeited the first time, the second time you get the night forfeited, I think. Again, since this is a cornerstone of the league, it's pretty rare for people to forget, especially twice. Also, if you throw in a way such that you would not be able to meet the numbers even if all players had been there, I think the entire night is a forfeit(iow, you can't throw your 4 highest players just to take a forfeit when you reach 23 point in 4 matches). It's sort of along the same idea of having relatively close matches. You can't stack a team with 3 strong masters("good" 7's) and a 2 to steamroll 3 matches and maybe get a 4th, without having to play 5 players.

The times I've got to Vegas, I've made sure that I conformed to all rules, because I'm supposed to know them and at that level I expect people to be watching for everything. Fortunately, it was all for singles, so I haven't had to watch for team problems.

If they throw Leinen and you throw Dub, Leinen better be a 9 and Dub a 2. Even then I'm not sure its enough



I'm sorry Chris, I don't mean to come off as another APA a$$hole, but its difficult to believe that you missed the 23 rule by three points...throwing a 5 when you had already played 21. I realize that I'm merely a dumb league hack, but I sure as hell know how many points I'm playing when I throw players. Its been beaten to death here enough, 23 is the big bugaboo.

And after 8 weeks you really aren't a "new" team any more.

I'm really not trying to be an a$$hole, but in this instance you'll probly think I am. (BTW I don't worship the APA. I don't agree with the rule particularly, but its their league that I agreed to play in. So I play by their rules.). As I said before, I think it sucks for you and your team, and it wouldn't have happened against my team.

We aren't all like that. The whole if APA isn't bad because of that one knucklehead.

 

[fast&loose designs]

If they throw Leinen and you throw Dub, Leinen better be a 9 and Dub a 2. Even then I'm not sure its enough



I'm sorry Chris, I don't mean to come off as another APA a$$hole, but its difficult to believe that you missed the 23 rule by three points...throwing a 5 when you had already played 21. I realize that I'm merely a dumb league hack, but I sure as hell know how many points I'm playing when I throw players. Its been beaten to death here enough, 23 is the big bugaboo.

And after 8 weeks you really aren't a "new" team any more.

I'm really not trying to be an a$$hole, but in this instance you'll probly think I am. (BTW I don't worship the APA. I don't agree with the rule particularly, but its their league that I agreed to play in. So I play by their rules.). As I said before, I think it sucks for you and your team, and it wouldn't have happened against my team.

We aren't all like that. The whole if APA isn't bad because of that one knucklehead.

I don't see how it's difficult to believe. I wasn't keeping track at all, instead keeping track of every effing shot at the table. That and doing coaching, dealing with outside distractions like emails and so on. The situation as a whole just could have been run soo smoothly had it not been for a-hole Tom. Period.

 

[lorider]

With all due respect, you weren't there and can't see all the angles. Everyone in my division, especially the long time members, know that Tom is an a-hole, no denying it. He acted like an ass. There are ways to win, and there is this way. Yes, I would probably think you are an a-hole as well, if you did to me what Tom did. Everyone I know that knows him has said they aren't surprised he did what he did, but would 't have done it to me. I wouldn't do it because I get no enjoyment from winning that way. Not only is it nitty, it creates unnecessary tension between players and teams, and at that point it's no longer fun OR competitive.

even though you apparently lump me in the apa worshippers class i have to say i could probably write a book about how many times i felt some body did me wrong in trying to win a match.

you know some thing ? i just laugh most of it off at the time and get my revenge on the table the next time.

a few examples;

playing another 5 and got to hill-hill. i did not mark the pocket and was called on it . the 8 was hanging a few inches in front of a corner pocket. where the hell else was i gonna put it. the captain of the other team who called it was a former team mate. my whole team remembered it come tri cups and it gave us incentive to put them out of the tourny which we did.

i played another person who is known for not calling fouls on himself. after what seemed several obvious fouls commited during a match where he continually denied them. you know the rule " call goes to the shooter unless there is an observer. " well it was hill -hill between us and he was on the 8 and my last ball was about 6'' from the 8. i said wait ..i want an observer. he gave me a puzzled look. he waited while i went to get the lo. he was so shook by that move he missed a straight in hanger and i ran out.

the next one is kinda a gray area ..according to how you read the rules.

i had a husband/wife that quit my team at end of session and formed their own team. although they were eligible to play on our team for ltc's they chose not to resulting in us forfeiting our 5th match due to not enough players there after we were tied. it cost us a shot at vegas.as we wound up 2nd in the ltc.

fast forward to our 1st meeting with their new team. i am pumped up wanting to win...as a matter of fact my whole team was.

i was playing their best player in my 9 ball match. he played a safe and i saw no way to kick. i grabbed my break stick and jumped full cue and not only pocketed the ball but got perfect on my next ball. all this time he was watching me grab the breaker and lining up and never said anything. once i made the shot he jumped up and said ..hey ..you cant do that !.

i told him ...if you are gonna be a captain you better learn the rule book. needless to say i beat his guy 19-1 in that match. we have never lost to that team.

in my book all the above people are ass holes i harbor no grudge or let tension build up. i am polite and cordial in our interactions every week . as a matter of fact...last night i gave the captain who called the not marking the pocket on me a hug and a kiss on the cheek. the captain is a girl by the way. i just put the screws to them on the table.

 

[buzzmc]

This stuff is why I don't play in leagues. I've played in pool and tennis leagues.

Good people are always good. There's always 1-2 captains or people that are not good people, adn they spoil it for everyone.

Good people don't want to use a technicality to win. They want to play.

I stopped gambling because I'm not good enough to match up straight up with anyone that wants to gamble. I hate handicapping. if I can't play you even I don't want to play.

So this whole story doesn't surprise me in the least. I've lived through it before, and I just chose to not participate anymore. Far easier.

 

[leto1776]

This stuff is why I don't play in leagues. I've played in pool and tennis leagues.

Good people are always good. There's always 1-2 captains or people that are not good people, adn they spoil it for everyone.

Good people don't want to use a technicality to win. They want to play.

I stopped gambling because I'm not good enough to match up straight up with anyone that wants to gamble. I hate handicapping. if I can't play you even I don't want to play.

So this whole story doesn't surprise me in the least. I've lived through it before, and I just chose to not participate anymore. Far easier.

Not if people don't let them spoil it for them.

Chris,my original post came off harsh. I'm sorry you had a bad experience. But one bad experience in a session isn't bad at all. Honestly, your team should have had a more APA experienced captain. Not meant to be a knock on you, but nobody should be a captain their first session. The inexperience is likely what led to you not paying attention. Tom Tau may have been douchey about it, but in the end, he followed the rules.

Also, your argument about him signing the sheet doesn't help you. If both players' names were put in the final match box, without the match being played, it's just evidence that you broke the 23 rule. Did you sign the score sheets? Because iirc, if you have a protest against the match results, captain should not sign the score sheets.

 

[fast&loose designs]

Not if people don't let them spoil it for them.

Chris,my original post came off harsh. I'm sorry you had a bad experience. But one bad experience in a session isn't bad at all. Honestly, your team should have had a more APA experienced captain. Not meant to be a knock on you, but nobody should be a captain their first session. The inexperience is likely what led to you not paying attention. Tom Tau may have been douchey about it, but in the end, he followed the rules.

Also, your argument about him signing the sheet doesn't help you. If both players' names were put in the final match box, without the match being played, it's just evidence that you broke the 23 rule. Did you sign the score sheets? Because iirc, if you have a protest against the match results, captain should not sign the score sheets.

I didn't, but he did. And I have enough experience as an amateur pool player to captain. I made what I consider a small mistake that resulted in a ridiculous penalty. I'm experienced enough to tell my team every week that we don't sandbag, and it's evident in our wins. We went from dead last to 1st in 2 weeks cause we played hard. I coached my teammates and their strokes and skill levels went up. We play the table, not the paper. A league that prioritizes point numbers over actual play on the table isn't for me. Most of the guys are not improving from playing, but from coaching and training I've been giving. Half of them have told me they will quit if I do. That's called loyalty and friendship. You don't get that by being a nit. We have integrity.

 

[Lonestar_jim]

Good stuff here by all.

Chris be sure to tell your team that statistically they get nothing as well. It is as though they never played. No BR/Sweep/8OTB and any other patches and so on, but they do get to pay still thankfully. At least that's the way it works here.

I feel for your situation, but would recommend that you and others quit making Tom and the league into such evildoers. Also the naming of names and leagues is vindictive and probably serves nothing more than to make you feel better. I doubt it helps much though.

When this happens I always feel worse for the team rather than the captain.

We can rest easily though knowing that the APA is there to correct 23 point rule violations after scoresheets are signed and we are in bed.

 

[Steve Dickey]

Chris,
As I just started playing pool and in the APA 3 years ago I can very clearly remember all the confusion regarding APA's rules. So, when you said you went over 23 because you were thinking about playing one of the team who had not played in three weeks I can see how easily you could make that mistake.
What I can't see is someone taking advantage of the situation. In my league I don't think there is one Captain who would not have simply said, " Hey, you're at 21, you need to play your 2." Done deal.
In the three years I've been playing I've had just one similar situation where I was aiming at my opponents ball and my opponent knew it, but waited for me to shoot before jumping up and telling me. The difference being, my screw up only resulted in ball in hand for my opponent, not the loss of games my team mates had already won. I think you would quickly get over a mistake that cost you your match, but the rest of your team, that's a bit tougher.
As Team Captain I do think you owe it to the team to do what you can, as it appears you are, to mitigate the damages. Then let it go and forget about it.
Given my perception of the "intent" of the rules, I would say that just the last match should be forfeited provided the 2 was there and could have played. Had you not run into the 1% who would rather win on a technicality than at the table, I'm sure we would not be discussing this.
You stated it has been fun for the most part and that you have met some new friends. I would encourage you to continue on with the league, enjoy your friends and forget about the occasional A-hole. After all they exist everywhere and you will enjoy your next encounter.
Good Luck, Steve

 

[trob]

seriously man ... it's 40 whatever points in an apa league. It's not worth getting all upset about for this long. learn...move on.

 

[fast&loose designs]

seriously man ... it's 40 whatever points in an apa league. It's not worth getting all upset about for this long. learn...move on.

It's not about 40 points, don't be condescending. It's about exposure, accountability, and standing up for what's right.

 

[trob]

It's not about 40 points, don't be condescending. It's about exposure, accountability, and standing up for what's right.

I'm not being condescending...ITS A POOL LEAGUE. lol It's not curing cancer. They made there ruling . the guy was a douche bag for calling it but YOU failed to count to 23 and the rules are quite clear. Stop wining like a little kid who dropped his ice cream and move on. There how's that for honesty.

 

[fast&loose designs]

I'm not being condescending...ITS A POOL LEAGUE. lol It's not curing cancer. They made there ruling . the guy was a douche bag for calling it but YOU failed to count to 23 and the rules are quite clear. Stop wining like a little kid who dropped his ice cream and move on. There how's that for honesty.

I've conducted myself with integrity. I'm pretty sure you're the one calling names like we're on a playground. Grow up. Asking for a national organization to take accountability for its ridiculous rules and procedures is hardly whining. Unlike you, I stand up for myself and my teammates.

 

[ridinda9]

Review the sheets ~ whats your history?

I was in a similar situation back in 2010.
I was the 1st place team, playing against the 3rd place team
It was week 12 of a 14 week session.
The 3rd place team was a "new" team ~ new to the APA, but people who've been "playing pool for years" in their own words.So naturally, they have a little "handicap advantage " built in ~ their S/Ls haven't fully settled yet.
After 4 matches, they're up on me 43-37. Kinda surprising, because I had a dream team, filled with APA veterans with locked-in NLAs. But I just laid that off to their new player "handicap advantage ".
Last match, they're at 20, put up a 5.
I called them on it, and was gonna let their 2 play twice, but she'd already left.
I was GOING to just take a 15--0 forfeit, giving us a 52-43 night,until I heard one of the players on the opposing team ask his buddy "why are we forfeiting? Jamal always plays last?" That put just a hint of suspicion in me. . . .
The next day, I stopped by the League Operator's office, and had the League Secretary pull up their scoresheets for the entire session.
THEY'D BROKEN 23 FOR 7 CONSECUTIVE WEEKS!
I suppose it could have been an honest mistake, but playing to 24-25 when everyone else is playing to 23 is a heck of an advantage. . . . . .
So, SkyscraperChris, go back and review your sheets - is this the first time you broke 23,or the first time you got CAUGHT?

 

[krupa]

It's not about 40 points, don't be condescending. It's about exposure, accountability, and standing up for what's right.

What about admitting you made a mistake, accepting the consequences, and moving on with your life?

I've conducted myself with integrity. I'm pretty sure you're the one calling names like we're on a playground. Grow up.

Really?

They stay quiet because otherwise they might have to actually acknowledge the fact that their prized jewel of a league is saturated with assclowns like Captain Tom Tao of Pasadena, CA.

Asking for a national organization to take accountability for its ridiculous rules and procedures is hardly whining. Unlike you, I stand up for myself and my teammates.

What about expecting team captains to know the rules and abide by them and then being mature enough to accept when they make a mistake and take the consequences.

After reading this thread, I can't see how you're the victim. You made a mistake and refuse to take responsibility for it. Live and learn.

 

[4onthebreak]

Either the rules apply to everyone or they don't. I've been a captain before and if I did something like this then I'd own up to it and take the loss. It isn't anyone else's job but mine.

Of course there's always the co-captain.....

If you choose to play in a structured environment then you take it warts and all. You either take the growing pains that you'll inevitably get (hopefully small ones but could be big ones) or you run away and blame others because everything didn't go as perfect as it did in your head.

Ignorance is no defense.

I hate to ever use the phase "be a man" but here goes:

Be a man and accept your mistake. Own it 1000% percent. " I did this and I'm not going to let it ruin me or my team". "I'm going to take steps to make sure it doesn't happen again".

It sounds like you'd be surprised at how differently you'd get treated.

 

[Quesports]

Not sure if it has been said cause I have zero desire to read the whole mess BUT the biggest mistake the OP made was starting this thread!!! Play by the rules or suffer the consequences..

 

[KRJ]

Not sure if it has been said cause I have zero desire to read the whole mess BUT the biggest mistake the OP made was starting this thread!!! Play by the rules or suffer the consequences..

Dan, read your own tag line. I think your answer lies within Too bad the other captain does not think like that !!

 

[cuesblues]

BUT the biggest mistake the OP made was starting this thread!!!

That is typically the case when it comes to APA bashing threads.
My advice is to quit.
I have probably quit more teams and leagues than anybody on the planet.
Every few years I find myself playing on 4-different teams, then I quit, one at a time.
Then I get on four more teams, do that for a few years, then I quit, one team at a time.
My favorite time of the year is when all the sessions are ending><:smile:

 

[Quesports]

Dan, read your own tag line. I think your answer lies within Too bad the other captain does not think like that !!

Yep both captains dropped the ball RJ. Nothing new there and No it is not the APA's fault either. So bashing that association is not going to make things any better. The rules are there and it is the responsibility of the captains to understand them and to make sure their teams understand them. That is what a leader is supposed to do. To expect the rules to be changed or manipulated to favor one or the other just shows weakness of character!

 

[TheNewSharkster]

It's not about 40 points, don't be condescending. It's about exposure, accountability, and standing up for what's right.

Dude stop acting like a little b*tch. You are the one the made the mistake. Own up to it instead of complaining on this forum. Seriously immature