So who was (is) the Greatest Player ever ?

smashmouth said:
interesting

the guys Hoppe lost to in the challenge seemed to be multi UMB champ and looks like he lost bad

so the question, did the UMB have the best players in the best tourney vs the bca versions in the usa? Did willie hoppe actually conquer the world at 3 cushion?

everything points to no
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This reads a little awkward (translated)
Willie wins a world title in 1906 at the age of 18...
..beats Maurice Vignaux (the Lion of France)
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...uTMAazUP40LMKSh_lnW9Ztg&bvm=bv.86475890,d.cGU
 
smashmouth said:
interesting

the guys Hoppe lost to in the challenge seemed to be multi UMB champ and looks like he lost bad

so the question, did the UMB have the best players in the best tourney vs the bca versions in the usa? Did willie hoppe actually conquer the world at 3 cushion?

everything points to no
Click to expand...

During the 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's, the TOP American players were averaging .950- 1.15 while the TOP European players were averaging, .700-.900 maybe! The USA dominated 3 Cushion throughout those decades!

The match in Argentina was an, "Exhibition" match!

Here's some details from a Dutch site.

header2_25[1].jpg

In 1949 played Hoppe exhibition match against a remarkable Ezequiel Navarra in Buenos Aires. Hoppe lost the ten-day three-cushion to 1,500 points against the younger Navarra with 1500 – 1216 in 1212 turns. The night of the final was played there for more than 4,000 spectators.

Can you post a link to where you found your info?
 
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Also as Mr3cushions post points out it was Ezequiel Navarra that Hoppe played and I believe the UMB winner you are referring to was Enrique. If I remember correctly Enrique was the uncle of Ezequiel and Juan Navarra. I believe they competed as professionals in the US and South America. Other can probably give better details.
 
Man, lots of non-pool talk in a thread that was asking (post #1): "Who is the Ruth, Nicklaus of Pool?"
 
KeithS66 said:
Also as Mr3cushions post points out it was Ezequiel Navarra that Hoppe played and I believe the UMB winner you are referring to was Enrique. If I remember correctly Enrique was the uncle of Ezequiel and Juan Navarra. I believe they competed as professionals in the US and South America. Other can probably give better details.
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Keith, you are correct on the pecking order of that family. Juan, was a very good friend of mine for many years! When He came to Chicago, He and Nam Zack from Michigan would stay at my home.

He and I played an Exhibition match at, 'Chris's Billiards' in Chi-Town around 1981. We played 45 minutes, the score was 41-34 my favour! He and Zeke had beautiful strokes for 3 Cushion!

Zeke played in a 'National' level tournament in the USA in 1948, He did indeed win it!

But, NONE of the TOP 6 or so players from here played, players like Joe Procita, Arthur Ruben or Johnny Irish were favoured from here.
 
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mr3cushion said:


During the 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's, the TOP American players were averaging .950- 1.15 while the TOP European players were averaging, .700-.900 maybe! The USA dominated 3 Cushion throughout those decades!

The match in Argentina was an, "Exhibition" match!

Here's some details from a Dutch site.

View attachment 375706

In 1949 played Hoppe exhibition match against a remarkable Ezequiel Navarra in Buenos Aires. Hoppe lost the ten-day three-cushion to 1,500 points against the younger Navarra with 1500 – 1216 in 1212 turns. The night of the final was played there for more than 4,000 spectators.

Can you post a link to where you found your info?
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which info specifically? did i get the Navarra bothers thing wrong?
 
mr3cushion said:
Keith, you are correct on the pecking order of that family. Juan, was a very good friend of mine for many years! When He came to Chicago, He and Nam Zack from Michigan would stay at my home.

He and I played an Exhibition match at, 'Chris's Billiards' in Chi-Town around 1981. We played 45 minutes, the score was 41-34 my favour! He and Zeke had beautiful strokes for 3 Cushion!

Zeke played in a 'National' level tournament in the USA in 1948, He did indeed win it!

But, NONE of the TOP 6 or so players from here played, players like Joe Procita, Arthur Ruben or Johnny Irish were favoured from here.
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so basically Hoppe got hammered by the non world champ brother?
 
Mr. Bond said:
It says Hoppe had 3cushion World Titles for:
1936, 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952


For the record, the BCA didn't exist until 48'
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you're proving my point, lol

all the "American" sources state this

yet it seems obvious the UMB world title was the true one with the world's best competing in that tourney, excluding willie hoppe
 
smashmouth said:
so basically Hoppe got hammered by the non world champ brother?
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First of all Zeke was ALWAYS, the better player of the 3 in the family!

Juan just happened to win that title!

After Zeke won that National in 1948, Hoppe challenged him to a 400 point match, Hoppe beat him 400 to 267, I believe! A little less than 2 to 1!

I'm trying to understand the point you're trying to make! Are you trying to refute the fact that Hoppe was the GREATEST 3C player of the first half of the 20th Century!

Maybe you can elaborate on posting your thoughts regarding Hoppe.
 
my contention is that he was not the best 3 cushion player by a long shot because he did not compete in the UMB events which featured the world's best

on a side note, it appears even Mosconi could keep within a hundred points or so in 1000 point challenge matches
 
mr3cushion said:
First of all Zeke was ALWAYS, the better player of the 3 in the family!

Juan just happened to win that title!

After Zeke won that National in 1948, Hoppe challenged him to a 400 point match, Hoppe beat him 400 to 267, I believe! A little less than 2 to 1!

I'm trying to understand the point you're trying to make! Are you trying to refute the fact that Hoppe was the GREATEST 3C player of the first half of the 20th Century!

Maybe you can elaborate on posting your thoughts regarding Hoppe.
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Juan won consecutive titles did he not?
 
smashmouth said:
you're proving my point, lol

all the "American" sources state this

yet it seems obvious the UMB world title was the true one with the world's best competing in that tourney, excluding willie hoppe
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Show from the UMB who and what the averages and results were for the players in the UMB World Championships from, 1925-1960!

Hopefully, you can provide that info, I for one would be curious to see it!

Thanks in advance!
 
smashmouth said:
my contention is that he was not the best 3 cushion player by a long shot because he did not compete in the UMB events which featured the world's best

on a side note, it appears even Mosconi could keep within a hundred points or so in 1000 point challenge matches
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This is real simple math, Willie Mosconi wa a .750 player, Willie Hoppe was a 1.16 player! It doesn't take an accountant to figure out that WH was at least 30% BETTER than WM! And in a LONG match like 1000 points, the score would have been even MORE lopsided! Most likely about 1000 to 500!

P.S. let me state again, the foreign players, especially from Europe during the first half of the 20th Century, (except for Roger Conti from France) were NOT in the same league as the American players of that time!

If you can produce a link to a site that shows the UMB results during that time period, I will relent my position on the American players!
 
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