Social experiment

N

nrhoades

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Over the past few months I've performed a social experiment by handing out these flyers

http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/8-ball_rules_flyer.pdf

to those in various pool bars in Newport, RI, that responded positively when asked if they enjoy pool and have a desire to become good at the game. I tried to avoid those groups that appeared not to have a mature interest in the game. The cross-section was of all ages between 21 and 65.

My goal was to educate those that may not be aware of the larger picture of the pool world, especially with the rule sets. I wanted to do this as politely and as friendly as possible.

Newport is a tourist town, and since it is now winter I generally saw a lot of the same people (locals) and was able to follow up with them (giving them time to absorb the information). Not pushing too hard, I'd ask if they wanted to play a game or two using some of the ideas on the flyer. I even offered to pay for the games, presenting them with free table time.

The overall response, suprisingly, was negative.

Out of about 35 people, only one even agreed to try a different rule set other than what they were accustomed to. And even then, he didn't like having to learn something new and wanted to go back to bar rules for the next game. Though they all politely dismissed the new information, a lot of the players were un-willing to try anything but bar-rules (possibly influenced by the local bush league). They were also un-willing to play other games, usually expressing a scornful sour disposition at the mention that there exists anything other than eight-ball.

I don't really know what to make of this. I've always like to believe that people have open minds to trying new things and learning, especially in New England. Perhaps there are other areas of the country/world where this same experiment would have more positive results. I've found that the older gentlemen tended to be much more agressive with their distaste for anything other than their idea of pool, which makes sense. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks, but I'm finding it equally as challenging to teach a new dog ANY tricks.

What's your critical opinion?
 
nrhoades said:
Over the past few months I've performed a social experiment by handing out these flyers

http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/8-ball_rules_flyer.pdf

to those in various pool bars in Newport, RI, that responded positively when asked if they enjoy pool and have a desire to become good at the game. I tried to avoid those groups that appeared not to have a mature interest in the game. The cross-section was of all ages between 21 and 65.

My goal was to educate those that may not be aware of the larger picture of the pool world, especially with the rule sets. I wanted to do this as politely and as friendly as possible.

Newport is a tourist town, and since it is now winter I generally saw a lot of the same people (locals) and was able to follow up with them (giving them time to absorb the information). Not pushing too hard, I'd ask if they wanted to play a game or two using some of the ideas on the flyer. I even offered to pay for the games, presenting them with free table time.

The overall response, suprisingly, was negative.

Out of about 35 people, only one even agreed to try a different rule set other than what they were accustomed to. And even then, he didn't like having to learn something new and wanted to go back to bar rules for the next game. Though they all politely dismissed the new information, a lot of the players were un-willing to try anything but bar-rules (possibly influenced by the local bush league). They were also un-willing to play other games, usually expressing a scornful sour disposition at the mention that there exists anything other than eight-ball.

I don't really know what to make of this. I've always like to believe that people have open minds to trying new things and learning, especially in New England. Perhaps there are other areas of the country/world where this same experiment would have more positive results. I've found that the older gentlemen tended to be much more agressive with their distaste for anything other than their idea of pool, which makes sense. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks, but I'm finding it equally as challenging to teach a new dog ANY tricks.

What's your critical opinion?
Click to expand...

This seems odd to me. I really enjoy learning new pool games and I don't mind the occasional rule change. I find that some people (most in fact) are resistant to change and maybe that has something to do with it.

But for me, when it comes to pool, I am interested in all aspects of it. It's history, future, pool in different cultures and so on. It's a shame you couldn't get more positive feedback.
 
Cdryden said:
This seems odd to me. I really enjoy learning new pool games and I don't mind the occasional rule change. I find that some people (most in fact) are resistant to change and maybe that has something to do with it.

But for me, when it comes to pool, I am interested in all aspects of it. It's history, future, pool in different cultures and so on. It's a shame you couldn't get more positive feedback.
Click to expand...

This raises the question: what is the difference between a person capable of developing genuine appreciation for the game (like yourself), and someone who isn't? What is the mindset of a person who refuses guidance? Do they feel threatened by what they think to be authority? I don't know.
 
nrhoades said:
This raises the question: what is the difference between a person capable of developing genuine appreciation for the game (like yourself), and someone who isn't? What is the mindset of a person who refuses guidance? Do they feel threatened by what they think to be authority? I don't know.
Click to expand...

There are allot of factors at play there. In my opinion to become a student of the game you need desire first and foremost. Dedication and a willingness to learn are also very important obviously, I also think that having an inquisitive mind is a big plus. Wanting to know "why" is a powerful thing.

As for the mindset of a person who refuses to learn it could be several things. Arrogance, pride, ignorance or maybe they don't have enough faith or respect for you to accept you as a teacher. (no disrespect intended!)

And sometimes people just flat don't care, they are happy with things the way they are and have no desire to change their ways. And there is nothing wrong with that if it's what makes them happy.
 
I too try to teach the bar-room bangers some new rules. Most say ball-in-hand is for sissies, that you should call all kisses etc. and that 9-ball is just a luck game. These are old traditions, not easily broken.
But explain how ball-in-hand is the standard way to play in 95% of the world and how call pocket does away with lots of bar-room arguments. When its "my" table, I insist on the normal BIH rules and explain that 95% of my games are played under those STANDARD rules.
Actually, in western Washington (state) the leagues have so flourished that most bar players do use call pocket Vegas rules (and I force APA players to call pocket in 8-ball games).
I have found many bangers willing to try bank pool, or rotation games, or 3-ball, or 1-15 or last pocket 8-ball ot carom pool...especially after I waxed 'em good using their "bar rules".
 
A lot of it is narrow thinking and that's just human nature.

Take, for example, the "ball in hand is for sissies" idea. Those people are looking at it from how "easy" it is to pocket a ball after a scratch, NOT from the defensive aspects of the game, "if I play a great defense and hook this guy, I can get ball in hand."

I was once talking to an league guy and mentioned how under BCA 8-ball rules, you don't lose when scratching on the 8 (unless the 8 is pocketed) and he just woudn't listen to any explanations I gave for it. To him, the 8-ball was a sacred object that cannot be scratched upon.
 
"Bar-room rules do not enforce penalties for fouls, so players can simply tap the cue ball a few inches and leave no shot for the opponent."

I've only seen league players who cry about no BIH do that in the bars I play in.

Its their way of "playing fair". Not how a man would do it but to each his own. When it happens to me I take it as a free shot.

You cite the WPA created in 1987 and " efforts culminated in February 1990, when 48 players (32 men, 16 women, in separate divisions) participated in the inaugural WPA World Nine-Ball Championship in Bergheim, Germany. "

You should put in your flyer that the tables have to be regultation and that the " athlete " as considered by the WPA is to follow a dress code...

OR

Get over yourself and understand that there is a range of rules and play by whatever set is being dictated.

Bless you for trying to standardize it but it seem like you got butt hurt because that guy doesnt know the rules.
 
In terms of “why” I think that for the most part people (in general) are not inclined to fix what is not broken. In addition, there is the attitude that “If your way were such a good way, I already would know about it.” The implication for these people is that they are being told they are “stupid” for not knowing what they should have known all along.

The other day in the hall a young guy, 25 or so, was telling his wife that when a foul is committed that the CB has to be placed in the kitchen, right next to where you spot the balls. He proceeded to show her exactly how it was done and what she could or could not do. When she looked at him with a question in her eye he explained that he had played for many years and used to make money playing so she only needed to believe him as he placed the CB right next to the foot spot and proceeded to make a ball.

Needless to say, I kept my mouth shut or there would have been a major argument about the “right” way to play pool.


Many years ago when attempting to introduce “new” social intake software to probation and parole officers (POs) who had many years conducting social intakes I found a way to get them to use it and advocate for its inclusion in their work. Of course this was after several failures.

Anyway, to get people who were used to “their way” to adopt a newer and substantially better way, I devised a plan in which all the POs were honestly told that we wanted them to evaluate the “new way” for 30 days. That we wanted them to tell us everything that was wrong with these new computerized procedures. At the end of 30 days they would vote and decide if the software was to be adopted. Interestingly it worked quite well and over 90% of the 40 - 50 POs advocated for the change. Where possible we addressed their concerns or explained the criticism to their satisfaction. This helped to give them “ownership” in the new program. And of course we all defend what we “own.”

Seems that when people know that they are in control and that they can tell you everything that is wrong with your way they are more likely to switch. Later we used this technique in several other government agencies with substantial success.

I suspect that something similar would work with what you have tried.
 
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mrjobe said:
"Bar-room rules do not enforce penalties for fouls, so players can simply tap the cue ball a few inches and leave no shot for the opponent."

I've only seen league players who cry about no BIH do that in the bars I play in.

Its their way of "playing fair". Not how a man would do it but to each his own. When it happens to me I take it as a free shot.

You cite the WPA created in 1987 and " efforts culminated in February 1990, when 48 players (32 men, 16 women, in separate divisions) participated in the inaugural WPA World Nine-Ball Championship in Bergheim, Germany. "

You should put in your flyer that the tables have to be regultation and that the " athlete " as considered by the WPA is to follow a dress code...

OR

Get over yourself and understand that there is a range of rules and play by whatever set is being dictated.

Bless you for trying to standardize it but it seem like you got butt hurt because that guy doesnt know the rules.
Click to expand...

I would love to follow a dress code.
 
JoeW said:
In terms of “why” I think that for the most part people (in general) are not inclined to fix what is not broken. In addition, there is the attitude that “If your way were such a good way, I already would know about it.” The implication for these people is that they are being told they are “stupid” for not knowing what they should have known all along.

The other day in the hall a young guy, 25 or so, was telling his wife that when a foul is committed that the CB has to be placed in the kitchen, right next to where you spot the balls. He proceeded to show her exactly how it was done and what she could or could not do. When she looked at him with a question in her eye he explained that he had played for many years and used to make money playing so she only needed to believe him as he placed the CB right next to the foot spot and proceeded to make a ball.

Needless to say, I kept my mouth shut or there would have been a major argument about the “right” way to play pool.


Many years ago when attempting to introduce “new” social intake software to probation and parole officers (POs) who had many years conducting social intakes I found a way to get them to use it and advocate for its inclusion in their work. Of course this was after several failures.

Anyway, to get people who were used to “their way” to adopt a newer and substantially better way, I devised a plan in which all the POs were honestly told that we wanted them to evaluate the “new way” for 30 days. That we wanted them to tell us everything that was wrong with these new computerized procedures. At the end of 30 days they would vote and decide if the software was to be adopted. Interestingly it worked quite well and over 90% of the 40 - 50 POs advocated for the change. Where possible we addressed their concerns or explained the criticism to their satisfaction. This helped to give them “ownership” in the new program. And of course we all defend what we “own.”

Seems that when people know that they are in control and that they can tell you everything that is wrong with your way they are more likely to switch. Later we used this technique in several other government agencies with substantial success.

I suspect that something similar would work with what you have tried.
Click to expand...

I suppose that comparatively, my disadvantage is the lack of an organized group for which to assign an evaluation to. It would take a considerable effort unless I were to create one. Then I might gain feedback. I feel that this would be approaching the mission statement of the APA, which has great success.
 
i wonder how the reaction to following proper rules/different games will change when you tell them they'll win a $100.00 for running out a 9 ball rack or something along those lines...in other words, find a "reward system" that'll make them feel like they accomplished something and are getting something in return
 
It's all about the experiance

In our neighborhood saloon we have a rather unusual situation that enables all comers a chance to compete on their own terms. The owner has expressed an interest in creating two distinctive atmospheres, one associated with VNEA league play, and a second for pure fun. It seems to work better than many other situations in taverns where rules are left up to the patrons. This little "hole in the wall" routinely attracts many of the areas top bar box players as well as providing a ton of entertainment for the locals. The first table has 4 rules, ( 1.)Keep What You Break ( 2.) Sh$t Counts ) ( 3.)Call The 8 ( 4.) Any Questions Refer To Rule #2. Everyone knows on either table what their in for. It works great. By the way the fun table is a quarter and the upper level table is 50 cents. This owner keeps these tables in top shape with pool being central to his business. Those of us who have talked about the differences in rules find only the penalty to an incoming shooter that has to shoot out of the kitchen and back in to hit his ball to be unjust, but you know what your getting into well ahead of time as some players knowingly will use this to their advantage.
 
nrhoades said:
Over the past few months I've performed a social experiment by handing out these flyers

http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/8-ball_rules_flyer.pdf

to those in various pool bars in Newport, RI, that responded positively when asked if they enjoy pool and have a desire to become good at the game. I tried to avoid those groups that appeared not to have a mature interest in the game. The cross-section was of all ages between 21 and 65.

My goal was to educate those that may not be aware of the larger picture of the pool world, especially with the rule sets. I wanted to do this as politely and as friendly as possible.

Newport is a tourist town, and since it is now winter I generally saw a lot of the same people (locals) and was able to follow up with them (giving them time to absorb the information). Not pushing too hard, I'd ask if they wanted to play a game or two using some of the ideas on the flyer. I even offered to pay for the games, presenting them with free table time.

The overall response, suprisingly, was negative.

Out of about 35 people, only one even agreed to try a different rule set other than what they were accustomed to. And even then, he didn't like having to learn something new and wanted to go back to bar rules for the next game. Though they all politely dismissed the new information, a lot of the players were un-willing to try anything but bar-rules (possibly influenced by the local bush league). They were also un-willing to play other games, usually expressing a scornful sour disposition at the mention that there exists anything other than eight-ball.

I don't really know what to make of this. I've always like to believe that people have open minds to trying new things and learning, especially in New England. Perhaps there are other areas of the country/world where this same experiment would have more positive results. I've found that the older gentlemen tended to be much more agressive with their distaste for anything other than their idea of pool, which makes sense. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks, but I'm finding it equally as challenging to teach a new dog ANY tricks.

What's your critical opinion?
Click to expand...

Critical opinion? I just printed 15 copies out to take with me to the weekly tournament I run at a pub.

Actions speak louder than words.
 
I gave up on teaching bangers in bars years ago. Most of the time I ask them if they play league and if so did they want to play by league rules. Whatever league they are in I play by their rules.

A lot of league guys go to bars or pubs and jump on a table to beat up on the locals. Since they play in leagues or have BEEN TO VEGAS :rolleyes: they think they are superior than most people. Not saying you try to hustle league players but you can always win a free beer or two ;) :lol:
 
Learning and trying new things is what makes life interesting. Please come out to California and teach me everything you know.
 
nrhoades said:
Over the past few months I've performed a social experiment by handing out these flyers

http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/8-ball_rules_flyer.pdf

to those in various pool bars in Newport, RI, that responded positively when asked if they enjoy pool and have a desire to become good at the game. I tried to avoid those groups that appeared not to have a mature interest in the game. The cross-section was of all ages between 21 and 65.

My goal was to educate those that may not be aware of the larger picture of the pool world, especially with the rule sets. I wanted to do this as politely and as friendly as possible.

Newport is a tourist town, and since it is now winter I generally saw a lot of the same people (locals) and was able to follow up with them (giving them time to absorb the information). Not pushing too hard, I'd ask if they wanted to play a game or two using some of the ideas on the flyer. I even offered to pay for the games, presenting them with free table time.

The overall response, suprisingly, was negative.

Out of about 35 people, only one even agreed to try a different rule set other than what they were accustomed to. And even then, he didn't like having to learn something new and wanted to go back to bar rules for the next game. Though they all politely dismissed the new information, a lot of the players were un-willing to try anything but bar-rules (possibly influenced by the local bush league). They were also un-willing to play other games, usually expressing a scornful sour disposition at the mention that there exists anything other than eight-ball.

I don't really know what to make of this. I've always like to believe that people have open minds to trying new things and learning, especially in New England. Perhaps there are other areas of the country/world where this same experiment would have more positive results. I've found that the older gentlemen tended to be much more agressive with their distaste for anything other than their idea of pool, which makes sense. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks, but I'm finding it equally as challenging to teach a new dog ANY tricks.

What's your critical opinion?
Click to expand...

I think it's the way you went about it. People like to be in a comfortable atmosphere where they're doing what they "know" is right; no one likes to be in that atmosphere only to have some stranger come up to them and tell them that what they are doing is in fact wrong. It's preaching. No one likes preaching, in large part because 95% of the time whoever is doing it is completely convinced he's right but really is a loon that is preaching stuff that is perhaps helpful/relevant to himself, but not so to the listener.

With that approach, I am not surprised that most people just tuned you out. I don't think it has anything to do with close-mindedness as much as just a social defense mechanism. You have to develop some sort of trust first which takes more than one or two interactions with the person (or, of course, be in some sort of position of authority, like you run the league and they're signing up so they play by the rules you hand them).

I agree that your rules are better, but as others have mentioned there are ways to go about it other than preaching (I particularly like the empowerment method of giving them 30 days and reporting back their opinions, although I don't know how one would do that to drunk barroom bangers).
 
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Rocket354 said:
I think it's the way you went about it. People like to be in a comfortable atmosphere where they're doing what they "know" is right; no one likes to be in that atmosphere only to have some stranger come up to them and tell them that what they are doing is in fact wrong. It's preaching. No one likes preaching, in large part because 95% of the time whoever is doing it is completely convinced he's right but really is a loon that is preaching stuff that is perhaps helpful/relevant to himself, but not so to the listener.

With that approach, I am not surprised that most people just tuned you out. I don't think it has anything to do with close-mindedness as much as just a social defense mechanism. You have to develop some sort of trust first which takes more than one or two interactions with the person (or, of course, be in some sort of position of authority, like you run the league and they're signing up so they play by the rules you hand them).

I agree that your rules are better, but as others have mentioned there are ways to go about it other than preaching (I particularly like the empowerment method of giving them 30 days and reporting back their opinions, although I don't know how one would do that to drunk barroom bangers).
Click to expand...

I agree, i've managed to turn a lot of people on to BCA rules when they were accustom to their own version. It's generally come down to trusting me as a player and explaining how these rules benefit them. For example, the opposing player should benefit in some way to a foul, and in many cases cb in the kitchen can hamper a player far more than if the cue ball stayed on the table. Most people understand that logic. It's just one example.

I've also managed to introduce many non-players to straight pool, a game that they tell me they play often amongst themselves.

Of course there will always be hold outs. There are people that insist that 8 ball is the professional game even after I've challenged them to use google to find evidence to support their assertion. I can't imagine only playing 8 ball, I'd lose interest in the game so fast.
 
go try to change someones mind on politics in the NPR section and you will get an idea how people by nature are.... close-minded.
 
The response you got from people really depresses me. Makes me want to grab their shoulders, shake them really hard and yell into their faces while my spit if flying: "WHY???????"


I know the answer. Most of them have no desire to play at a higher level than at a bar, therefor they don't really need to adjust. As long as they have fun playing pool, I am happy. It's when someone wants to play me and force the idiotic rules on me, I get into that shoulder shaking mode.
 
Rocket354 said:
I think it's the way you went about it. People like to be in a comfortable atmosphere where they're doing what they "know" is right; no one likes to be in that atmosphere only to have some stranger come up to them and tell them that what they are doing is in fact wrong. It's preaching. No one likes preaching, in large part because 95% of the time whoever is doing it is completely convinced he's right but really is a loon that is preaching stuff that is perhaps helpful/relevant to himself, but not so to the listener.

With that approach, I am not surprised that most people just tuned you out. I don't think it has anything to do with close-mindedness as much as just a social defense mechanism. You have to develop some sort of trust first which takes more than one or two interactions with the person (or, of course, be in some sort of position of authority, like you run the league and they're signing up so they play by the rules you hand them).

I agree that your rules are better, but as others have mentioned there are ways to go about it other than preaching (I particularly like the empowerment method of giving them 30 days and reporting back their opinions, although I don't know how one would do that to drunk barroom bangers).
Click to expand...

I specifically tried to go out of my way to avoid the appearance of preaching, but I think that maybe its impossible with this method. The rest of what people said after your response is good feedback
 
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