# solidifying vision fundamentals/the eyes

#### FranCrimi

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You also need "reference" specs for the other variables in order to have single references for angle and speed. When one changes others do too.

pj
chgo
True --- any point can become a reference point. I prefer to factor in the two main variables of angle and speed to obtain a main reference point for shots affected by CIT. The other variables could very well be the same adjustments for many shots on the table, not necessarily specific to CIT adjustments.

#### bbb

##### AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I like knowing what's going on scientifically to help clarify what I'm experiencing on the table but I can't imagine trying to compensate for all those factors in real time.
thats what experience (hours of practice and play) and your subconscious are for.....
i am not an instructor
jmho

#### dr_dave

##### Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Great. Now that you have accumumlated all of that information then maybe you can create a bottom-line chart to help players to adjust their aim incrementally by X amount, based on angle and speed. Looking forward to seeing it.
I think the summary of the “10 useful things to know about throw in your game” at the bottom of the throw tutorial page (along with the supporting links) is about the best I can do in this regard.
Throw is complex, with many variables. There are no simple answers beyond the ones I have already summarized.

bbb

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...the summary of the “10 useful things to know about throw in your game” at the bottom of the throw tutorial page
You say that maximum throw is about 5 degrees - does that mean for either CIT (1/2 ball stun) or SIT (full 1/2 spin)? Or is there a known difference?

pj
chgo

#### dr_dave

##### Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
You say that maximum throw is about 5 degrees - does that mean for either CIT (1/2 ball stun) or SIT (full 1/2 spin)? Or is there a known difference?

pj
chgo
There is no difference. Max throw is max throw, regardless of the source.

#### FranCrimi

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the summary of the “10 useful things to know about throw in your game” at the bottom of the throw tutorial page (along with the supporting links) is about the best I can do in this regard.
Throw is complex, with many variables. There are no simple answers beyond the ones I have already summarized.
A robot shooter would probably work best in this case:

Place the cb and ob on fixed spots at a particular angle to the pocket--- perhaps 30 degrees. Then you choose what you want the cb to be doing at impact --- foward roll, backspin, slide? (Maybe all 3?) You pick it, and then do it at 3 speeds, soft, medium and hard, all of which are measured speeds. Use whatever aiming method you use to pocket balls, and find the aim adjustement and measure and note it. Then set up the next angle increment --- 32 degrees? 33 Degrees? 35 Degrees? You pick. Keep all other variables the same --- speed, distance and what you want the cb to be doing at impact. Measure and note that aim adjustment.

You now have created several reference points at varying angles for shots in the CIT zone.

You can do the same tests with 1,2, and 3 tips of sidespin.

After you've charted all of your results, you may be able to help players by giving them incremental adjustment information regarding CIT angles.

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Here's a "chart" showing the range of tip placements for producing maximum throw at the cut angles shown (with slow/medium stun hits).

- for a straight shot (on the left), maximum throw is produced with half of maximum "inside" spin
- for a halfball shot (in the middle), maximum throw is produced with no sidespin
- for a thin cut (on the right), maximum throw is produced with half of maximum outside spin

For cut angles between these examples tip placement should be adjusted proportionally with cut angle change - for instance, a 3/4 ball cut (~15°) should be hit with 1/4 maximum inside tip offset (midway between half of maximum inside and centerball), and a 1/4 ball cut (~45°) should be hit with 1/4 outside tip offset (midway between centerball and half maximum outside)*.

*Note: using outside spin (example on the right) to increase throw may be counterintuitive, but it's actually necessary for cuts thinner than half ball (30°), because without it the "rubbing speed" between the balls is too fast for maximum throw (like car tires "spinning out" on the pavement with too much acceleration).

pj
chgo

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#### FranCrimi

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here's a "chart" showing the range of tip placements for producing maximum throw at the cut angles shown (with slow/medium stun hits).

- for a straight shot (on the left), maximum throw is produced with half of maximum "inside" spin
- for a halfball shot (in the middle), maximum throw is produced with no sidespin
- for a thin cut (on the right), maximum throw is produced with half of maximum outside spin

For cut angles between these examples tip placement should be adjusted proportionally with cut angle change - for instance, a 3/4 ball cut (~15°) should be hit with 1/4 maximum inside tip offset (midway between maximum inside and centerball), and a 1/4 ball cut (~45°) should be hit with 1/4 outside tip offset (halfway between centerball and maximum outside)*.

View attachment 696765

*Note: using outside spin (example on the right) to increase throw may be counterintuitive, but it's actually necessary for cuts thinner than half ball (30°), because without it the "rubbing speed" between the balls is too fast for maximum throw (like car tires "spinning out" on the pavement with too much acceleration).

pj
chgo
That's a good chart too, but I feel like you guys are all circling the boat but no one's actually getting in it and finishing the job.

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I feel like you guys are all circling the boat but no one's actually getting in it and finishing the job.
There are too many variables that have to be considered to "finish the job". My chart freezes the variables of speed, distance, vertical rotation and equipment condition so it can illustrate just tip offset and cut angle - to cover all the variables would require multiple charts (and maybe be more confusing than informative).

pj
chgo

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#### FranCrimi

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There are too many variables that have to be considered to "finish the job". My chart freezes the variables of speed, distance, vertical rotation and equipment condition so it can illustrate just tip offset and cut angle - to cover all the variables would require multiple charts (and be more confusing than informative).

pj
chgo
From a player's perspective:

I'm playing in a tournament and I'm looking at what I've determined to be about a 45 degree cut angle. It's been raining for two days, so I decide to use topspin with two tips of outside with medium speed to get to my next shot. The first thing I want to know is --- what's my CIT aiming adjustment for that angle? Next, how much to I add or subtract from that reference point based on my choice of two tips of high outside with medium speed?

Same shot different day: It's dry out and now I can shoot the shot with low outside and pull the cb back across one rail. Again, what's my CIT aim adjustment for a 45 degree shot at that distance and then how much do I add or subtract from that to allow for two tips of low outside at a hard speed?

What's the common thread? It's the CIT aim adjustment reference point for X degrees at X speed. I'm not asking for you guys to factor in all the possible variables, although that would be nice -- It's not practical. Just give us the initial reference points for as many angles as you can calculate within the CIT range of angles and we can figure out the rest -- being, how much to add or subtract from that reference point.

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
From a player's perspective:

I'm playing in a tournament and I'm looking at what I've determined to be about a 45 degree cut angle. It's been raining for two days, so I decide to use topspin with two tips of outside with medium speed to get to my next shot. The first thing I want to know is --- what's my CIT aiming adjustment for that angle? Next, how much to I add or subtract from that reference point based on my choice of two tips of high outside with medium speed?

Same shot different day: It's dry out and now I can shoot the shot with low outside and pull the cb back across one rail. Again, what's my CIT aim adjustment for a 45 degree shot at that distance and then how much do I add or subtract from that to allow for two tips of low outside at a hard speed?

What's the common thread? It's the CIT aim adjustment reference point for X degrees at X speed. I'm not asking for you guys to factor in all the possible variables, although that would be nice -- It's not practical. Just give us the initial reference points for as many angles as you can calculate within the CIT range of angles and we can figure out the rest -- being, how much to add or subtract from that reference point.
I think you're underestimating the complexity of the task (and its interpretation by the player).

pj
chgo

#### dr_dave

##### Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
After you've charted all of your results, you may be able to help players by giving them incremental adjustment information regarding CIT angles.
I already have all throw effects (including how CIT varies with speed, angle, and the amount and type of spin) “charted” out in all the plots available via the links I provided earlier.

#### FranCrimi

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think you're underestimating the complexity of the task (and its interpretation by the player).

pj
chgo
I think it would be quite a complex endeavor, but that doesn't mean it's not doable, right? I'm not even a scientist and I can almost map out the procedure in my head --- and yes, you'd have to stop along the way and take a few detours while answering some side questions in order to move forward, but that's what makes it interesting, and isn't that what scientists do?

If you say it can't be done, then so be it. I'll let it go.

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
If you say it can't be done, then so be it. I'll let it go.
I know I couldn't do it. Dave might, but the volume of info he already has about it makes me think it can't be simplified enough to be usable by players at the table. I hope he proves me wrong.

pj
chgo

#### dquarasr

##### Registered
Here's a "chart" showing the range of tip placements for producing maximum throw at the cut angles shown (with slow/medium stun hits).

- for a straight shot (on the left), maximum throw is produced with half of maximum "inside" spin
- for a halfball shot (in the middle), maximum throw is produced with no sidespin
- for a thin cut (on the right), maximum throw is produced with half of maximum outside spin

For cut angles between these examples tip placement should be adjusted proportionally with cut angle change - for instance, a 3/4 ball cut (~15°) should be hit with 1/4 maximum inside tip offset (midway between half of maximum inside and centerball), and a 1/4 ball cut (~45°) should be hit with 1/4 outside tip offset (midway between centerball and half maximum outside)*.

View attachment 696765

*Note: using outside spin (example on the right) to increase throw may be counterintuitive, but it's actually necessary for cuts thinner than half ball (30°), because without it the "rubbing speed" between the balls is too fast for maximum throw (like car tires "spinning out" on the pavement with too much acceleration).

pj
chgo
pj,

Does the chart account for CB deflection? I assume the chart depicts maximum throw at those contact points regardless of how the CB got there, whether deflected or not and the shooter still has to account for deflection to get the CB to the intended contact point. Right?

bbb

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
pj,

Does the chart account for CB deflection? I assume the chart depicts maximum throw at those contact points regardless of how the CB got there, whether deflected or not and the shooter still has to account for deflection to get the CB to the intended contact point. Right?
Right. To be totally realistic the two sticks hitting off center on the CB would be slightly angled to compensate for squirt - but the "force vectors" (blue lines) would be unchanged.

pj
chgo

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bbb

#### WobblyStroke

##### Well-known member
ye even if a comprehwnsive chart could be made for all speeds and cut angles who could even use that? so much needs to be calculated. handing the job over to the subconscious mind seems like the only way. to try to consviously process all this stuff let alone be able to accurately eyeball 33degrees vs 30degrees would just be madenning and counterproductive imo. these are nice things to understand and put numbers to but Im not sure how useful such a resource would actually be at the table. i know for me at least it would be a total wsdte of time.

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Right. To be totally realistic the two sticks hitting off center on the CB would be slightly angled to compensate for squirt - but the "force vectors" (blue lines) would be unchanged.

pj
chgo

bbb

#### bbb

##### AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here's a "chart" showing the range of tip placements for producing maximum throw at the cut angles shown (with slow/medium stun hits).

- for a straight shot (on the left), maximum throw is produced with half of maximum "inside" spin
- for a halfball shot (in the middle), maximum throw is produced with no sidespin
- for a thin cut (on the right), maximum throw is produced with half of maximum outside spin

For cut angles between these examples tip placement should be adjusted proportionally with cut angle change - for instance, a 3/4 ball cut (~15°) should be hit with 1/4 maximum inside tip offset (midway between half of maximum inside and centerball), and a 1/4 ball cut (~45°) should be hit with 1/4 outside tip offset (midway between centerball and half maximum outside)*.

View attachment 696765

*Note: using outside spin (example on the right) to increase throw may be counterintuitive, but it's actually necessary for cuts thinner than half ball (30°), because without it the "rubbing speed" between the balls is too fast for maximum throw (like car tires "spinning out" on the pavement with too much acceleration).

pj
chgo
For the straight shot
how do you define “inside” for the spin?
since the ball moves opposite direction to the side of the spin is it really “outside ” spin?
ie…..if you cut a ball to the right and use left spin its” outside”
in your example you have left spin which throws the ball to the right

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#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
For the straight shot
how do you define “inside” for the spin?
since the spin throws the ball away from the cue ball is it really “outside ” spin?
It’s actually neither, since there’s no cut angle (inside = “inside” the cut angle). I called it inside because it’s one end of the range of inside hits.

pj
chgo

bbb