It's in post #9.
Some observations about aiming
- Thread starter Straightpool_99
- Start date
It's in post #9.
Ah, I didn't bother to read that one. I prefer the ones that leave room for interpretation.
Probably not. The high school kids, after taking geometry, probably would. I know I would have read it in the original cuneiform.
Neil, I try to keep an open mind, but I've read this 10 times and I don't see "ghost ball" mentioned anywhere... This is post #9 quoted:
duckie said:
See, while I do believe that there are aiming systems that are sound in base, they shouldn't be seen as a panacea. I'm all for it, if it bolsters one's confidence; and knowledge is always a good thing.
I'm also not against "blind faith." I'm a Christian. At the same time, I'm as curious as anyone, and I always want to know the "why" as well as the "how." Stan has promised the "why" and I'll take his word on it. I was an ace in Math in high school, and took two years of Calculus and one year of Differential Equations in college, do work in CAD/CAM, and I couldn't tell anyone the "why" of a particular system. And that's OK by me too. At the same time, blindly saying, "Well it works for me, so it must work" or "I've significantly increased my pocket percentage" or "These dozen pros use it successfully so it must work" is not proof; though it is good anecdotal evidence.
People are all wired "differently." Sometimes what sounds like gibberish to one, seems to "click" for another, and vise versa. Some are more intuitive, others more analytical. To be your best you have to figure out which way you tend toward. An intuitive player may not play his best if he starts dissecting his game, and an analytical player may develop feel but may not have the creative insight of an intuitive player. While one could do both, I think you always have to favor your strength to be the best you can.
My promise is more on the HOW side of CTE: precision visuals and precision alignment info....
The WHY aspect is another deal but my 3 geometry videos on YouTube go along way toward resolving the WHY already.
Stan Shuffett
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From post #9- Or is it possible there is one system that handles this and all other shots that do exist in the pool playing world......even tho you may not experience those shots?
The part I just quoted is him talking about ghost ball. Even though he didn't actually say ghost ball, anyone that reads his posts knows that is all he talks about. How it will do anything, aim, play position, jump shots, masse' shots, kick shots, banks, ect. His above post is clearly a reference to ghost ball.
Well then... is that incorrect? Couldn't aim, position, jumps, masse', kicks, banks, all be taught with ghost ball? Do we not imagine the "ghost ball" performing the shots we envision, before we even take one shot at the table? Don't we even imagine ghost mirrors, that reflect the table and give us reference on kicks and banks?
GoldenFlash
Banned
Who cares about "why"....?
1. I don't know why an air conditioner works...it just keeps me comfortable.
2. I don't know the 'why' of this computer....it just allows me to communicate.
3. I don't know the 'why' of electricity...it just keeps the lights on in my house and if I stick my finger into an open light socket, I'll get shocked.
4. I don't know the 'why' of lift on the wings of an airplane, aerodynamics to me is a pain in the ass...I just know without it, that airplane will go into the ground.
5. I don't know the 'why' of a sexual orgasm....but it sure is fun.
6. I don't know the 'why' of CTE aiming either...I just know that since I got with it, my percentage of pocketed balls has skyrocketed. And I am still learning more about it.
And that, my pool shooting associates, is good enough for me.
I guess each of us has his own 'cross to bear'.
1. I don't know why an air conditioner works...it just keeps me comfortable.
2. I don't know the 'why' of this computer....it just allows me to communicate.
3. I don't know the 'why' of electricity...it just keeps the lights on in my house and if I stick my finger into an open light socket, I'll get shocked.
4. I don't know the 'why' of lift on the wings of an airplane, aerodynamics to me is a pain in the ass...I just know without it, that airplane will go into the ground.
5. I don't know the 'why' of a sexual orgasm....but it sure is fun.
6. I don't know the 'why' of CTE aiming either...I just know that since I got with it, my percentage of pocketed balls has skyrocketed. And I am still learning more about it.
And that, my pool shooting associates, is good enough for me.
I guess each of us has his own 'cross to bear'.
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My question then is, if you're pocket percentage has skyrocketed, and you're an admitted APA 3, what was your rating before? Does it go lower than 3?! Sure, improvement is relative, but what holds you back from 4 or 5 or even 7? Sandbagging?
I don't know if you just aren't really following the conversation, and thereby just responding to individual statements, or if you are deliberately trying to confuse things for others. ??
We are talking about AIMING here. So, let's keep it in context.
1. Aiming with ghost ball- this means that you aren't using contact points, but you are estimating where the center of the cb has to be when the cb makes contact with the ob, then you shoot down the line of center cb to center ghost ball.
This has been shown and proven that very, very, very few people are actually able to do this accurately. When given an easy test, which simply is for the shooter to get behind the cue ball, while the assistant marks where the shooter says the ghost ball line is, the shooter is almost always wrong.
2. Since the discussion is about aiming, and aiming is about finding the line to shoot down, aiming systems (or methods, depending on how anal one is with wording) naturally do not cover playing position. Now, I was wrong when I included jump shots, that is a normal aiming shot, just elevated. The others, I was right on. Ghost ball does not show you how to aim a bank shot. Nor, does it show you where to hit the rail to aim a kick shot. One can use ghost ball to shoot into a certain spot on the rail for a bank, or a kick, but ghost ball does not show one exactly where to put the ghost ball in those shots. Either one uses another system to find that spot on the rail, or they are just estimating where to hit. If an aiming system doesn't even tell you where to find the shot line, is it even really an aiming system at all?
3. Ghost ball is usually the first term someone hears in aiming, and often is the only term they learn. So, when asked how they aim, most will say "ghost ball". Ghost ball is great for teaching. It is great for diagrams. In teaching, it is often used to show where the shooter needs to shoot the cb to. However, ghost ball aiming in itself does not show the shooter where that line is unless one is able to very accurately picture the ghost ball in their mind on just where the want it to be. Very few are able to do that accurately.
When you are visualizing the collision of the balls, that is still ghost ball.
There is no cue ball there is there , before the collision ????
It's amazing how much the shooter is wrong where the center of the ghost ball is but still make balls.
You know, like those usual tournament winners at the local hall who have no clue what aiming systems are.
They just visualize the two balls colliding. From there , they'd have an idea where the cue ball will eventually go.
Good Lord!
Yes, good Lord! Just amazing, you use contact points to make an argument for ghost ball. Nothing like using one system and then giving credit to another system, huh?
The space you imagine the ghost ball occupies is relative to the contact point .
Would you imagine the ghost ball dead center of the object ball if the contact point is to the right ?
Let's line up those APA3 to 5 you teach twitching pivot systems.
Let's see how many of them really know what half a tip is.
I'll bring my calipers.
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Thanks for making it clear that you don't understand how ghost ball is actually aimed, nor you do understand the pivot in CTE.
Oh, you also get to define the ghost ball ha?John,
I guess Dr Dave is wrong too.
How did the pool world survive before CTE? Jeesh, I bet people couldn't make a ball before that.
Hey, what if I imagine the ghost ball as a 2 1/4 disc? Should we call that the ghost disc?
Al Romero, even taught his own variation of the ghost ball. Imagine the ball inches before it crosses the object ball . I guess that's not a ghost ball either.
1 - I asked where you saw reference to the words "ghost ball" in post 9. It was actually an inference. The point I'm trying to make is, you seem to be offended the same exact thing you are doing - attacking one aiming system for its apparent vagueness. I merely bring up the point that duckie's actually right - many people USE ghost ball to aim banks, kicks, jumps, I do. Does that make me bad? It's no big deal; it's not how you drive, it's how you arrive. In the aiming thread I mentioned on critical shots where aim was paramount, I lengthen my bridge. Someone mentioned that they do not like the feel of a long bridge, which is fine. I normally don't, but if my accuracy jumps for shots I use it in, why not? I don't care how it feels, if it does what I want. Same for CTE. Why do proponents care what others think, if it helps them? It's only the naysayers that lose out.
2 - I started off using ghost ball, off a ghost reflection, to aim banks and kicks. It's actually a commonly taught technique. Is it for everyone? Absolutely not. I do visualize stuff in 3D, but because of my involvement in art, architecture, math, and CAD/CAM. To me it's intuitive.
3 - It's also been proven time and time again that regardless of where a good player thinks the ghost ball should be, they still repeatedly pocket balls. Take any good player, and set up the half-pocket spot shot for them. Have them make 10 in a row. Now move the OB about 1/8 ball to either side. That good player will still make that shot. Did that player suddenly learn what a 7/16 or 9/16 hit is? Or did the mind interpolate what hit was needed to pocket that ball? Regardless of the aiming system one uses? The angle obviously changed.
Yes, Dr. Dave is very wrong in his statement. What defines a system is how one goes about getting to the ghost ball position, not just the fact of where that system ends up putting the cb.
You say you use ghost ball for kicks and banks, then you go on in point two to show that you don't use ghost ball, but actually use double the distance systems.
Your point three actually makes no point at all. You are saying that just because people can pocket balls, that is proof that ghost ball is an accurate system.
Again, what defines what system you use is determined by the steps you take to get to the correct shot line. If you do the steps correctly, and the system you are using works, then you will end up on the correct shot line to the ghost ball position. But, just because you end up in the same position with various systems, does not mean or even imply that you used ghost ball aiming system to get there. HOW you get there is the system, not where the destination is.
I use the ghost ball to aim at that "imaginary OB in the reflection.
I also never said "ghost ball" was a system. My point is that, just because people cannot accurately represent where they thin the ghost ball is when they aim, doesn't mean they don't aim at that ghost ball and make the pocket. Maybe the correct term would be aiming "device." And not device in the "real" sense, but as a tool I use to aim and envision what I want the shot to look like.
I'll go back to duckie's analogy to racing his road bike. Think about just driving to the store. You don't think about it, you just do it. You don't calculate the turning radius at every corner to deduce how much you have to turn your steering wheel with its variable pitch rack-and-pinion? And if you borrowed a friend's car to go back, you don't think about how the turning ratio on his steering wheel may be different? You don't even think how far away from a curve you have to be to start turning, or how far away from a stop sign to start braking? Do you even think how much you have to move your mouse over the mouse pad, to get the cursor on the screen to go to the SUBMIT button? Or think about where you have to place your hands to catch a ball that someone throws to you from 75 feet? And if that person threw one ball 2 feet to your left, do you not automatically move to your left to catch it? In each of these cases, there's timing, aiming, figuring out a complex mathematical equation that the mind seemingly does automatically. But it started from your first drive, when you overcut the steering wheel and went into the opposite lane, or braked too late and skidded a little at the intersection, or when that cursor seemed to have a mind of its own, or got hit in the chest with that first fly ball as a child... Once you learn the easy task, the mind adjusts when the task gets harder, and you can navigate that chicane, or draw complex stuff on the computer screen using only the mouse, or catch that pop fly blowing in the wind with the sun in your face...
So in short, I don't use a system per se. Doesn't mean it's not valid for others. I learn what they're about because the more knowledge you have, the better. I actually agree with most of what you say here on the forum, but I don't think is as one-sided as you make it out to be. Po-tay-to, po-tah-to... they eat the same.