I beg to differ with you... the second shot in the Youtube is a force follow shot as the CB bends out with high follow. Are you writing that the CB must hit the rail twice or something?
Something Your Teacher Can Teach You...
- Thread starter Bobkitty
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I beg to differ with you... the second shot in the Youtube is a force follow shot as the CB bends out with high follow. Are you writing that the CB must hit the rail twice or something?
That's good information.
I will take it to the "chamber of horrors with the nightmarish 4 1/4 pockets" in the morning and work on it.
I'm assuming the 'spin with the top' you're referring to is what we used to call "natural" or "running" spin? God help me, if it's 'reverse'.
(I'm recalling a Grady Matthews shot in one pocket where the reverse spin combined with the top causes the cueball to force out into an arc and then proceed to another location close to the opposite long rail leading into the same pocket)
Please tell me it isn't reverse with the top...please, please, please. *doing his James Brown imitation with the Please Please Please*
TY
:thumbup:
Sorry. Sing it brother. In this case it is a touch of reverse. It isn't much of either. With running English the cue ball is going to follow a path like he laid out in his follow 3 rail'er but not as severe. His follow shot is very high and a lot of running English. To emulate the straight stun you mention without much angle adding a touch above center helps get it to the rail but pushes it forward. It takes the slight reverse to offset that forward motion. There isn't enough of either to do tricks with the cue ball. It is still close to the stun shot you mention just possibly not quite as hard a hit and a little insurance you get to the first rail. If your angle is slight enough I think you have to abandon the stun up and back shot completely and whatever you do you are going to be hitting the ball pretty hard.
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There seems to be a lot of opinions on what a force follow shot means. Dr. Dave says: "What is force follow, and how and when is it used? A force follow shot is a follow shot hit with maximum topspin and fast speed."
He doesn't mention combining it with any side spin or not.
Matt Sherman at ThoughtCo talks about it being mostly a snooker shot and it goes like this: The force follow is a great move when you wish to glide the cue ball a few feet ahead with power and control. Line up two balls, aim high on the first one and hit it hard! The cue ball sinks the object ball straight on and in kingly fashion, rolls down a few inches to a few feet, then "dies" on the table. Following the blow delivered to the ball, the cue is again moving forward. It will creep just a few inches to several short feet forward following impact...
With much of the force sent skyward (note the previous photo) the cue ball will have just a bit of forward roll to serenely roll into position.
He makes it sound like you can kill the forward action without hitting it into a rail. His image shows the ball "jumping" and says most of the impact goes "skyward".
I have no clue what that means or how that shot might work.
Brandon with Billiards and Darts demonstrates force follow to break out a cluster. He shoots an object ball into a corner pocket with very little angle (not enough to hit the cluster with forward roll). Hits very high very hard which forces the cue ball down the tangent line before the high takes and then curves the cue ball into the cluster.
The only thing they all have in common is high and hard and usually not much if any angle. No one mentions side spin one way or the other. My guess is that is why Fran disqualifies the high action shot as a force follow because it appears to have a lot of side spin in addition to the top spin. Am I on target Fran? does a force follow preclude the use of side spin as that automatically forces the shooter to move down on the cue ball a little, hence no longer making it a force follow, just a high action with side spin shot?
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On the second shot via Youtube, I use high english without any spin. A little of right hand spin and the ball will hit before the side pocket and it doesn't work. My instructor and I call this shot force follow because the CB bends with high english. Guess others can call it differently. But, doesn't matter what anyone calls it, it is a shot most of us should learn as it comes up often as I've seen.
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Okay, let's talk about that a little bit.
I got it working kinda' half ass already this morning, but the velocity (what the experts refer to as 'speed') is a stone cold terror.
That object ball has got to drill that pocket facing perfect or it's going to rattle. Especially on these 4 1/4 inchers. It is not easy and I would not dare try it in action...turning that cueball loose scares the daylights out of me.
On the other hand...concerning his draw shot.
I can hit that shot with center and just a twitch of left, and I do mean a twitch, and the cue ball comes off the short rail like a bullet and does the whole 3 rail position thing without a trace of draw.
Perhaps I only THINK I'm hitting the cueball in the center and actually I'm putting some draw on it unknowingly?
That could only be determined by watching a video I guess.
Good information you're sending out, my man. I enjoy it very much................and the price is right :thumbup:
TY.
Lowenstein.
I have a standing agreement with my friend. He does it the "hard way" but has done it for so long he can't change. The problem is he still wants me to do it his way. He almost NEVER uses stun for position and all the modern teaching tells us that is the most predictable position shot because it is always 90 degrees with a sliding cue ball. The challenge then is to get the cue ball in that sliding motion at impact with enough angle to get to a rail. I strive for that a lot and he never does. For him every shot has a little left or a little right and top.
I have learned from him though that there are times when that touch of high will get the ball to a rail just enough where my stun shot just sits there and spins in place.
My error. I thought I detected some side spin. I was basing that more on the speed of the ball than the angle of rebound. I will have to experiment with it a little myself. All in all, looks like a couple of fun shots to set up.
Here is a super simple force follow shot that you can use today. If you hit the one ball with high or middle or right spin, you will hit the obstruction balls and who knows where the CB will end up. Hit the one ball with a little bit of force follow and see the bending. https://youtu.be/o0_khLKS7OM
I love seeing players learn the fun shots! Try this one...
Bottom-Inside, Rail First
The OB is froze to the rail. By going slighty into the rail first you can pull off a great shot! If the OB is hit first or at the same time as the rail, the CB action dies. It takes a good stroke at a medium-firm speed.
Here's another example of its use. The pocket where the camera's at is blocked, so the eight must go in the upper left corner. bottom inside, rail first #2
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Pretty much, yup.
There seems to be a lot of opinions on what a force follow shot means. Dr. Dave says: "What is force follow, and how and when is it used? A force follow shot is a follow shot hit with maximum topspin and fast speed."
He doesn't mention combining it with any side spin or not.
Matt Sherman at ThoughtCo talks about it being mostly a snooker shot and it goes like this: The force follow is a great move when you wish to glide the cue ball a few feet ahead with power and control. Line up two balls, aim high on the first one and hit it hard! The cue ball sinks the object ball straight on and in kingly fashion, rolls down a few inches to a few feet, then "dies" on the table. Following the blow delivered to the ball, the cue is again moving forward. It will creep just a few inches to several short feet forward following impact...
With much of the force sent skyward (note the previous photo) the cue ball will have just a bit of forward roll to serenely roll into position.
He makes it sound like you can kill the forward action without hitting it into a rail. His image shows the ball "jumping" and says most of the impact goes "skyward".
I have no clue what that means or how that shot might work.
Brandon with Billiards and Darts demonstrates force follow to break out a cluster. He shoots an object ball into a corner pocket with very little angle (not enough to hit the cluster with forward roll). Hits very high very hard which forces the cue ball down the tangent line before the high takes and then curves the cue ball into the cluster.
The only thing they all have in common is high and hard and usually not much if any angle. No one mentions side spin one way or the other. My guess is that is why Fran disqualifies the high action shot as a force follow because it appears to have a lot of side spin in addition to the top spin. Am I on target Fran? does a force follow preclude the use of side spin as that automatically forces the shooter to move down on the cue ball a little, hence no longer making it a force follow, just a high action with side spin shot?
Some clarification: I don't think I wrote "mostly for snooker", I wrote how some British players use the term "force follow" for a power stroke that jumps the cue ball into the air a bit, so that momentum is dispersed away from the two balls, and the cue ball follows after the object ball a short distance for such a strong stroke. On a straight shot, you hit it high, you hit it hard, and the cue ball dies a few inches to a foot along the cloth.
It is physically impossible to make a cue ball out-spin its forward travel along the cloth--topspin is simply a forward-rolling ball. On this thread, a lot of the force follow strokes under discussion are talking about maximum touch and distance with a follow stroke.
My teacher and I disagree. Any CB that bends forward with forward spin is a forced follow shot. Whether there is a rail there to bounce off or not.
Would you call this shot force follow? https://youtu.be/czopH0C5kjg
My teacher used to do six balls and get the CB back to the corner. I can only do three right now, but I'll continue work on it. Let's see how many you can do?
Well, I guess whatever you call the shot, it sure is handy for the pool player to know. I've learned about 20-30 nice shos (force follow shots in my terms) and they come in handy in games. This is a skill a good pool player must know.
Would you say there was maximum top spin on that shot? Was the cue ball driving forward?
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yes (as much as i can do at this time), yes. And if you can do more balls than 3 please let us see it. I know some players can do 4,5,6 balls and I would love to watch them do it.
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My point is that when there's maximum top spin on the cue ball, you can literally see it spinning forward once it stops sliding. You're applying plenty of force to the shot, but I'm not really seeing the driving topspin. I'm not sure what adding another blocking ball, as you suggested, has to do with force follow. I don't see it that way. What you're showing in that shot is a change of direction which I think is taking a lot of energy from the shot, leaving nothing much left after the change of direction.
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If I hit the one ball more head on, the CB would bounce back and drive straight forward with top spin. BUT, I have to hit the one ball so that the CB will go out to the right and drive in the nine ball in the 9 foot corner pocket. So that, hinders the shot you are writing about.
Whatever we call the shot, it's a wonderful thing to learn all around the table. Busting out clusters, getting fantastic shape, etc. My pool teacher can teach these shots to his students and I would hope others (teachers) can also, but I have not heard that any other pool instructors do that.
Dennis...I suspect Robin is rolling his eyes when he sees you arguing about something as silly as force follow. There are specific definitions of what force follow is, and they have been posted here in this thread. Yet you seem to think you know more than the other instructors pointing out your errors. Having spoken with Robin a few times, I feel that he is on the same page as most of the better instructors here...and would not argue the point like you seem to enjoy. Give it a rest...
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Dennis...I suspect Robin is rolling his eyes when he sees you arguing about something as silly as force follow. There are specific definitions of what force follow is, and they have been posted here in this thread. Yet you seem to think you know more than the other instructors pointing out your errors. Having spoken with Robin a few times, I feel that he is on the same page as most of the better instructors here...and would not argue the point like you seem to enjoy. Give it a rest...
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
You would not think the shot was silly if your opponent sunk the 9 ball like I did in the last shot, would you? Do you teach the shots I'm performing on here? Probably not if you think they are silly. AND, I could care less what someone calls the shots, either forced follow or high english roll out, the results are valuable to know. AND, 95% of pool players do not know them.
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