Spinning the ball in

[slach]

I haven't been playing long, so sorry if this is obvious to some of you.

I've noticed in my shooting drills that shot A tends to rattle out when grazing the long rail near the corner pocket. Shot B tends to rattle and drop. I'm thinking this may be due to some english imparted to the object ball in shot B (?). If so, would you recommend shooting A with intentional english to help the object ball drop or does the risk of using english (and all the extra compensations required) make it not worth it?

Appreciate your opinion.

Steve

CueTable Help

 

[Pete]

My guess is, shot A is hit thick, shot B thin. Thick equals a faster OB, thin a slower OB.

Hope that helps...

Pete

 

[Jal]

...I've noticed in my shooting drills that shot A tends to rattle out when grazing the long rail near the corner pocket. Shot B tends to rattle and drop. I'm thinking this may be due to some english imparted to the object ball in shot B (?). If so, would you recommend shooting A with intentional english to help the object ball drop or does the risk of using english (and all the extra compensations required) make it not worth it?

I think what both you and Pete said is true. Applying some english could make the difference; it depends on how much top or bottom spin the cueball has when it reaches the OB. You should get the maximum amount of spin on the OB with a stun shot (no top or bottom spin as it reaches the OB) and with only a moderate amount of inside english - right english in this case. Shooting it with, say, near maximum english will not impart the most spin.

Hitting softer, sans the english, is much easier as you already know, and I think Pete is suggesting as much. Using just draw to both slow the cueball and put some topspin on the OB is another option...under the assumption that you're going to bounce the OB off the long cushion.

Jim

 

[B4IFURU18]

IMO the rattle is related to the speed of the object ball, not the english transferred to it. If you hit the OB softer, it will roll in the pocket, not slide in the pocket. I think thats where the term "pocket speed" comes from.

 

[ronhudson]

I have heard numerous people say you can help pocket a ball with "get in" english. Half the people say "get in" english in inside english, the other half say it's outside english.

Personally, I think you can't transfer enough english to the object ball shooting from position b to make any difference. Try this experiment. Use a stripe ball as the object ball and orient it so that the stripe will roll steady like a wheel if the ball goes toward the pocket without any spin. Shoot the cue ball from position b so that the object ball goes into the hole and see if there's any appreciable spin on the object ball.

I think the "get in english" is mostly an illusion -- the squirt that comes from hitting the cueball with english causes the cueball path to be altered so that the cueball - object ball hit is just right and the object ball goes in just the right direction for the ball to get in the hole like it's supposed to.

 

[scottjen26]

You have several options really, all of which I've heard of people using.

First, to answer your question, assuming you contact the object ball at exactly the same effective angle (object ball heads in the same direction on both shots, taking into account collision induced throw etc) and speed, option B could possibly result in the ball going in vs. missing from position A because of a little more collision induced left english added to the object ball. It wouldn't be much, but that little "twirl" can make a difference in the object ball going or not, especially on the type of equipment we tend to play on here (Olhausens with their unforgiving pocket facings and a lot of humidity).

Of course if you make the ball, you make the ball, pretty much no matter what english or speed you use. But if you hit it a little thick and rub the rail on the way in, any acquired english on the object ball, whether from contact or from transfer, can make a difference. Personally, I don't try to transfer english to try to "help" make an object ball typically - doing so in this case would require using inside english on the cue ball, which would transfer outside english (left in this case) to the object ball but potentially induce aiming errors on the shot. I've experimented, and it can help at certain speeds and angles, but better to aim more accurately...


As to the options for helping english - you can use inside, as mentioned above, to try to transfer a bit of outside to the OB and help twirl it in if it's shot slow enough and at the right angle. Or some people use outside english on the CB, not only to offset collision induced throw that could cause the OB to hit the rail before the pocket, but also will slightly help the object ball hug the rail slightly if it's traveling down the rail at a very slight angle. In your example, that might work more from position A than from B.


Personally, I may use a little outside to reduce the effects or eliminate CIT - a lot of players do this on all cut shots, I'm talking a 1/4 tip of english or so - and I pay close attention to my line of aim to make sure I'm hitting the true center of the pocket based on my angle into the pocket to avoid that horrible rub from the rail and consequent jawing of the ball, especially if I have to hit the shot with any speed whatsoever for positional reasons.

Hope this helps...
Scott

 

[Scott Lee]

ronhudson...Good post! There is no such thing as "get in" or "go in" english! It's all about cut angle and stroke speed.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I have heard numerous people say you can help pocket a ball with "get in" english. Half the people say "get in" english in inside english, the other half say it's outside english.

Personally, I think you can't transfer enough english to the object ball shooting from position b to make any difference. Try this experiment. Use a stripe ball as the object ball and orient it so that the stripe will roll steady like a wheel if the ball goes toward the pocket without any spin. Shoot the cue ball from position b so that the object ball goes into the hole and see if there's any appreciable spin on the object ball.

I think the "get in english" is mostly an illusion -- the squirt that comes from hitting the cueball with english causes the cueball path to be altered so that the cueball - object ball hit is just right and the object ball goes in just the right direction for the ball to get in the hole like it's supposed to.

 

[George Fels]

I'm with Ron Hudson too. You get more spin from the cue ball's direction (that is, collision-induced) than you could ever transfer to the OB yourself. And it's mostly the OB's speed that determines whether it will fall or wiggle. It's fine to use half a tip of English to ward off "cling", as Mike Sigel suggests, but you never want to "spin in" a ball, and they're two different things. GF

 

[Andrew Manning]

My guess is, shot A is hit thick, shot B thin. Thick equals a faster OB, thin a slower OB.

Hope that helps...

Pete

Agreed. In shot B, the thinner cut angle means the object ball is not moving as fast when it gets to the pocket. Moving slower means a lower chance of rattling out when it grazes the adjacent rail.

I also agree with others about "get in" english. Some spin is transferred, but it's such a small amount I don't think it's a factor in whether or not the shot drops.

-Andrew

 

[Paul Mon]

I have heard numerous people say you can help pocket a ball with "get in" english. Half the people say "get in" english in inside english, the other half say it's outside english.

Personally, I think you can't transfer enough english to the object ball shooting from position b to make any difference. Try this experiment. Use a stripe ball as the object ball and orient it so that the stripe will roll steady like a wheel if the ball goes toward the pocket without any spin. Shoot the cue ball from position b so that the object ball goes into the hole and see if there's any appreciable spin on the object ball.

I think the "get in english" is mostly an illusion -- the squirt that comes from hitting the cueball with english causes the cueball path to be altered so that the cueball - object ball hit is just right and the object ball goes in just the right direction for the ball to get in the hole like it's supposed to.

Ron,

This brings back memories for me and it should also for you. When I first found Internet user group RSB back in 1997 the topic for months was "get in english". Here's my 2 cents. If I need to cinch a ball that's on the rail I use inside english. George Fels is another advocate of using inside english.

best regards......Paul

edit...Just saw that George already had a response. Gotta read em all before replying

 

[ronhudson]

Yeah Paul, we should discuss this about every 10 years or so.

Ron