Stan Shuffet Challenge

[Colin Colenso]

Is the bold part why I miss more playing one pocket when rolling the slow ones?

Most likely, though if one has a tendency to hit a little on the inside of the CB on soft strokes, swerve can add to this effect.

I'll attach a throw chart for a 1/2 ball right to left cut from slow (top left) to hard (bottom right). This is the variation relative to a medium speed natural rolling pot.

The top left, slow chart, center top of image indicates that a slow rolling pot will undercut a little over 1/2 inch per yard compared to medium speed follow.

Edit: Note that this slow speed is for about 1 table length of roll for the CB. On softer shots, as the pattern indicates, throw may reach a couple of inches per yard.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Yes, this is how I understand the system, and how I play it, and I don't have any shots that I have found that I can not make with the system. That being said, there are some adjustments of bridge length depending on how close the cue ball is to the OB.

Shooting center ball or with english is indifferent here. Once you get into the line of the shot by pivoting, you can adjust your cue and tip to play english just as you normally would. Of course, you would also have to make any small adjustments that you would normally make when playing english. CTE simply gets you into the line you would use with a center ball hit. Before I used CTE, I would orient myself into that line, and make adjustments for any deflection that was going to happen due to english. With CTE, you are in the line after the pivot, and make any normal adjustments you would make from there. It may sound like that would be hard to do, but it really is not.

Thanks. The reason I made my comment about me using english so much is that I envisioned many more fractional overlaps than just that handfull. I never even assigned any specific numbers to any of them. They were just whatever I interpreted the needed overlap to be.

I guess there are more angles needed when using english in a non formal manner like just BHE based on the pivot point of the cue. Also I never did pivot from outside of center to center. Even with TOI it's a shift from center not to it.

Thanks again for 'confirmation'.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Thanks Colin. I think that is more than I can put into actual action.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Thanks Colin. I think that is more than I can put into actual action.

I hope it made sense. The only part strictly relevant to your question was the top center of the top left chart, which is yellow.

The bar, which is too small to read, shows that yellow indicates between 0.5 and 1.5 inches of undercut throw per yard. The orange is 1.5 to 2.5 and so on.

The white zone is where we would want to be as much as possible, so we don't need to adjust for throw.

The points on the chart approximate the position the cue hits the CB and the spin that would result in immediately after.

 

[mantis99]

If what you say is true & it seems to be, I think it is now fairly obvious that there are more actual physical alignments than just A, B, C, 1/8, & Edge with a pivot or sweep to thicken or thin. For instance if one can rotate all of them 1,2,3 etc. degrees in either direction the result would basically be 90 angles that can actually be created.

That said, those rotations would seem to now bring subjectivity even more into play.

Does one 'tweak it 1,2,3,4, or 5 degrees or should one use a different starting point & 'tweak' in the other direction 1,2,or 3, degrees.

The system also becomes even more complex, to me, with all of the 'tweaking' options that may be needed to avoid a miss. It would seem that perceived holes are real unless the 'tweak' is employed.

This may be a rare time when more info is detrimental.

The more people are finding out about Obamacare the less they are liking it.

But...as long as those that are using it are happy with it, that is all that matters. CTE I mean, not Obamacare.

This is incorrect. All you need is a,b,c and 1/8th with the ability to pivot each way. It is no more complicated than that, and does not require finite adjustments.

 

[DTL]

Yes, this is how I understand the system, and how I play it, and I don't have any shots that I have found that I can not make with the system. That being said, there are some adjustments of bridge length depending on how close the cue ball is to the OB.

Shooting center ball or with english is indifferent here. Once you get into the line of the shot by pivoting, you can adjust your cue and tip to play english just as you normally would. Of course, you would also have to make any small adjustments that you would normally make when playing english. CTE simply gets you into the line you would use with a center ball hit. Before I used CTE, I would orient myself into that line, and make adjustments for any deflection that was going to happen due to english. With CTE, you are in the line after the pivot, and make any normal adjustments you would make from there. It may sound like that would be hard to do, but it really is not.

Right........most of the time by simply using BHE.

 

[Se7en6ix]

I watched the whole video and I'm not sure what the challenge is.

At first, Stan speaks of getting some students in his home (free of charge, or must we pay?) to learn CTE and then challenge them to show him where he is wrong. I ain't afraid of putting myself out there for that.

Then later he speaks of betting "a sizable amount of money"? Is that the challenge that we're all supposedly afraid to take? Challenging a pro-level player to a demonstration of sharpshooting accuracy, each using his own method? Well, I certainly am afraid of that. But how would that prove anything about CTE? Heck, Stan's stroke alone will beat me, even if he shoots with his eyes closed, no matter which aiming system we each use.

So, here the deal. Stan invites a few doubters like myself for a day or two of hanging around, learning the basis of CTE, trying out our respective aiming systems, and coming to a very public (and hopefully honest) conclusion about the usefulness of CTE to our game. Particularly, we can discuss at length how this is a truly objective system, and why other ways of aiming fail in this regard.

I effed up my social security and can't collect until some time in March, so I'm flat broke, but I can find a way down there from way up here in upstate NY if this is not a ploy to drum up paying students (not accusing him of that at all, just stating that I'm not paying anybody to challenge them at something). If so, I accept the challenge. I'll even do all the cooking while were there. We just need to get a couple other doubters on board. Lou... Anthony... you guys in?

The core challenge is.....let me summarize.

1) Prove me (stan) that I'm wrong..
2) Prove me (stan) why CTE doe not connect to the geometry of the table
3) Prove me (stan) is not as accurate as raised by the negatives

it seems that everybody is quite offended with the "sizable amount of money"...
so offended that they never realized that the main goal of the challenge is to prove him (stan) wrong regarding CTE.

=============================================================

In the end I hope some would take the challenge for the sake of pool and none other.

Thnaks

 

[Colin Colenso]

Right........most of the time by simply using BHE.

That's assuming the bridge is at the length of the effective pivot point for the given shot and that the type of english you require coincides with the throw amount that CTE aligns us to, which I assume is to line of centers or zero throw.

If the bridge length needs to be adjusted for BHE, that would put alignment out of whack a bit.

 

[ENGLISH!]

This is incorrect. All you need is a,b,c and 1/8th with the ability to pivot each way. It is no more complicated than that, and does not require finite adjustments.

Thanks. I may give that a try to see how it works for me.

Best to Ya',
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

That's assuming the bridge is at the length of the effective pivot point for the given shot and that the type of english you require coincides with the throw amount that CTE aligns us to, which I assume is to line of centers or zero throw.

If the bridge length needs to be adjusted for BHE, that would put alignment out of whack a bit.

Good Morning Colin,

Mr. Shuffett says that CTE with the pivot or sweep brings one to the shot line with a slight overcut that would or could compensate for the collision induced throw, so...IMHO using outside back hand english without an adjustment might or could result in an overcut.

Best to Ya',
Rick

 

[stan shuffett]

This is incorrect. All you need is a,b,c and 1/8th with the ability to pivot each way. It is no more complicated than that, and does not require finite adjustments.

The15s and 30s must be accompanied with the CTE offset.

Also, the 1 liners are perceptions....not direct laser-lines.

Stan Shuffett

 

[stan shuffett]

Good Morning Colin,

Mr. Shuffett says that CTE with the pivot or sweep brings one to the shot line with a slight overcut that would or could compensate for the collision induced throw, so...IMHO using outside back hand english without an adjustment might or could result in an overcut.

Best to Ya',
Rick

Yes, possibly.....depends on speed and angle or elevation of cue.

A 15 with a level cue, for example, and a pivot just ticks past center would not result in an overcut but likely a push or squirt into the OB creating a thicker hit .

The same shot with a tick or so of outside and a slightly elevated cue can result in a little outside.....caution though as you suggest.

Stan Shuffett

 

[duckie]

Proving Stan wrong about CTE would be like trying to prove me wrong about Ghost Ball......it ain't gonna happen.

The thing is Stan is not wrong. His use of CTE is excellent as is my use of Ghost Ball.

The key word .....use. It's all about how well you use xxx aiming method.

As for challenges.......why not go after either Mosconi or Cranfields high run in 14.1. Should be piece of cake right.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Yes, possibly.....depends on speed and angle or elevation of cue.

A 15 with a level cue, for example, and a pivot just ticks past center would not result in an overcut but likely a push or squirt into the OB creating a thicker hit .

The same shot with a tick or so of outside and a slightly elevated cue can result in a little outside.....caution though as you suggest.

Stan Shuffett

Thanks again for you personal input.

Best Wishes in Every Area,
Rick

 

[ronscuba]

It's probably already been discussed in the million+ threads/posts on CTE, but anyway.

In my opinion, with all the aiming methods, you adjust your standing starting position until you get to the "correct visual". From there, you may pivot or drop straight down, but they all use some visual based adjustment to get to that starting position and confidence you are in the correct spot. It's a key component of whatever aiming method you choose to use.

Some terms people have used to describe this: visualization, feel, subjective, perception, minds eye, visual intelligence, seeing the angle. To me, they are all words describing the same thing.

Not sure if people agree, but it's my opinion.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Good Morning Colin,

Mr. Shuffett says that CTE with the pivot or sweep brings one to the shot line with a slight overcut that would or could compensate for the collision induced throw, so...IMHO using outside back hand english without an adjustment might or could result in an overcut.

Best to Ya',
Rick

Hi Rick,
I recall mentions of the overcut, I wasn't sure if that was definitive.

Yes, in most cases BHE with more than gearing outside english would increase the overcut.

If one's aim gets them to a slight overcut, that can be incorporated very well for a lot of shots using BHE.

That said, BHE requires a good knowledge of effective pivot points and a good knowledge of relative throw for various speeds, spins and angles to incorporate it into a comprehensive aiming system. There will be times, such as a long slow OE 1/4 ball cut where we're just going to have to guess the amount of swerve a bit, if forced to play such a shot. There will always be some feel shots.

That said, the game becomes a lot easier if we have a way of making pretty much any ball that is on, as a rolling pot or draw shot, and if you're bridging anywhere near your pivot point, a touch of outside on stun shots.

FWIW: The basis of my own aiming system is to feel the line that goes to center of pocket for a medium speed natural rolling pot. This equates to a slight overcut for the line of centers. If I play a power follow or power draw, which have practically zero throw, I will overcut about a half inch per yard on most angles. I'd only adjust my aim slightly for this if the pocket is over 5 feet away.

 

[ENGLISH!]

It's probably already been discussed in the million+ threads/posts on CTE, but anyway.

In my opinion, with all the aiming methods, you adjust your standing starting position until you get to the "correct visual". From there, you may pivot or drop straight down, but they all use some visual based adjustment to get to that starting position and confidence you are in the correct spot. It's a key component of whatever aiming method you choose to use.

Some terms people have used to describe this: visualization, feel, subjective, perception, minds eye, visual intelligence, seeing the angle. To me, they are all words describing the same thing.

Not sure if people agree, but it's my opinion.

Ron,

I would agree in general but each can be a bit different depending on their basis.

One of the things, & again it may be because I have shot mostly with 'parallel' english for so many years, is that I hardly ever get down 'exactly' on the shot line that I wind up shooting. I get down close but then almost always have to sort of 'wiggle' into that exact line that I want.

It now seems to be all the rage to get down 'exactly' on the line & if it's not right get up & start over. I'm certainly not saying that there is anything wrong with that, but for me, I would be getting up & down way too often & wear myself out.

I've always fine tuned while down on the shot, maybe that is because I have a very low head position, not chin on cue, but very low. Maybe I wiggle into the line because it looks so different to me down than when standing tall. Maybe it's because I'm looking at it with both eyes when standing tall & my dominant shooting eye when actually looking down the cue.

I just thought I'd throw that out since much of this discussion is about visual perception & 'intelligence'.

I believe it is Mr, Shuffett's teaching & please correct me if I'm wrong, is that once the visual has been determined & one gets down with the proper bridge placement one does not even really have to look at the OB. One can just shoot if the sweep was used or pivot for that method & shoot.

I can see where that would be a 'stress' & 'strain' free method. I'm just not sure than I could do that & maybe this is what some have said about it may look wrong but one just trust it.

Best to Ya',
Rick

 

[Timothy Rose]

Yes, my FULL CIRCLE videos can do just that. I think there are 4 of them.

Stan Shuffett

I see what your talking about now. I remember reading maybe 4 or so years ago on here, One poster said the best way to learn how to shoot by feel or just move into the shot and shoot is by learning pro1. It the quickest way to learn angle awareness, i guess you can say.

 

[8pack]

I see what your talking about now. I remember reading maybe 4 or so years ago on here, One poster said the best way to learn how to shoot by feel or just move into the shot and shoot is by learning pro1. It the quickest way to learn angle awareness, i guess you can say.

Playing by feel and pro1 are nothing alike. Who was the poster??? You.

 

[Timothy Rose]

Playing by feel and pro1 are nothing alike. Who was the poster??? You.

Your not understanding the post but that's ok