Stance

mantis99 said:
I have been taking a strong look at my fundamentals lately, and was wondering how others approach their stance. I have always just gotten into a comfortable stance that seems to be in line with the shot, with no real specifics besides that. What key factors do you look for when finding your stance, and how might those affect your stroke?

I have been drilling a lot lately, and have found that I have a tendency to steer my cue to the right, causing unwanted spin. It seems as though it is coming from a combination of my outside fingers pushing the butt of the cue towards my body, and my elbow moving in towards my body, however, I can't help but feel like it is something in my stance that makes my arm want to move in towards my body. Any thoughts?
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First understand the stroking line you're trying to achieve. Then fit your stance around it. If you feel like the cue is pulling off that line then tweak your stance until it doesn't.

My guess is you have a chickenwing and your grip rolls in towards your body. Essentially your cue is moving in an arc and when your timing is off or you overdo it, you apply right english.
 
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I finally got a video posted here on you tube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW7l5_YSUd4

Its a little longer than I wanted, but I got a number of different angles of my stroke, shooting at different speeds for each angle. The sound did not come out good, so you will have to turn up your volume if you want to hear what I am saying. I think the last view that starts around 9:30 shows the grip the best. I notice a definite difference in my grip tightness with a soft vs hard stroke. I appreciate any input anyone has regarding what might be causing the steering of the cue, and tips on how to fix it. Thanks.

Bill
 
i no im gonna get hated on for this but ....... if u ever saw scooter play he steps into his shot really well .... its kinda like baseball or basket ball
im right handed i step n left foot foward n put it towards my object ball ..... just my 2 cents
 
Give me another call sometime............

mantis99 said:
I finally got a video posted here on you tube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW7l5_YSUd4

Its a little longer than I wanted, but I got a number of different angles of my stroke, shooting at different speeds for each angle. The sound did not come out good, so you will have to turn up your volume if you want to hear what I am saying. I think the last view that starts around 9:30 shows the grip the best. I notice a definite difference in my grip tightness with a soft vs hard stroke. I appreciate any input anyone has regarding what might be causing the steering of the cue, and tips on how to fix it. Thanks.

Bill
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Hi there Bill,

I noticed a few things. One is that we need to be sure which eye is dominant?

The rest is pretty simple. I'll go over it when you call. To difficult to put in words on here. Much easier to explain.

tal to you soon. geno...........
 
sfleinen said:
mantis99:

You didn't yet post a video link (that I can see, anyway). But, in the meantime, you received a lot of great information here. Eye dominance is a biggie when it comes to subconscious steering of the cue. I think enough ground was covered with the posts you've received thus far on this topic (especially from Mike -- Mikjary) that I wouldn't even attempt to add to something that is probably as complete as it can be.

However, another thing to focus on is something you hinted on (bolded above), and not many players have the foresight, analytic skills, or intelligence to understand the physics behind it.

The human hand and wrist is of asymmetric construction, and possibly the worst design (mechanical engineering-wise) that can be used to hold and drive a cylindrical instrument forward. First, the hand -- as you've surmised -- has four fingers on one side of the cue, and one (the thumb) on the other side. Ignoring the fact that each finger is stronger or weaker than the others, if we compare the fingers to the thumb, and if a finger equals a "1" in terms of strength, then the thumb equals a "2" in terms of strength. (This is greatly simplified, of course -- the pinkie is much weaker than the index or middle fingers.) So we have a power of "4" on one side of the cue, and a power of "2" on the other. Or, instead of "power" we can also say "mass." In either case, you have double of something on one side of the cue -- the fingers side. Plus, take into consideration that the flexion side of the fingers (the natural direction the fingers take when closing into a fist) is facing inwards towards the cue's surface (towards your body), but the flexion side of the thumb faces backwards towards the butt of the cue. So we have the instance where the forces of the hand are unbalanced and facing in multiple directions, not in a single direction as would be the case with a human-engineered cradle or "clamp."

Let's also take into consideration the wrist -- it's designed to flex most optimally towards and away from your palm (towards and away from your body, if you were in your shooting stance holding the cue). The wrist's natural and optimum method of flexion is not in the direction that you're swinging the cue, which is the same motion as if you were waving your hand "hello."

With these simplistic analyses of the unbalanced construction of the human hand and wrist, it is no wonder that we have a problem with consistent swinging of the cue accurately.

So, one has to adapt a method of grip that attempts to balance these unbalanced forces. One way is to lessen the number of fingers contacting the cue. Many instructors advocate (and many world-class players use) a two-fingered grip -- two fingers + the thumb. (Two good examples are Dennis Orcullo and Ronnie Alcano.) The forces on either side of the cue are more or less balanced -- two fingers just about equals the strength and mass of the thumb. Plus, the tendency to "grab" the cue at any point in the stroke is lessened. (When the human hand is in its natural "fist" state, it's natural for the fingers to clamp closed -- the force of "4" on one side of the cue overpowers the thumb, driving the butt of the cue inwards towards your body.)

Another method, used in snooker, is to use a rear-fingered grip. That is, if you look at the design of your hand, you'll see that you have the "pincers" (the index finger + the thumb), and the "cradle" (the middle, ring, and pinkie). By resting the cue in the "cradle" (those three fingers curled under the cue, supporting it from underneath) and leaving the "pincer" fingers (index + thumb) pointing downwards, you remove the unbalanced forces on the side if the cue. Plus, when you deliver the cue forward with a nice relaxed cradle, you'll see the forward fingers (index, thumb, and possibly even the middle finger) open-up and outwards away from the cue, sort of like a sabot on a bullet. (This, by the way, is the same motion that happens when you throw a dart, but in reverse -- when you hold a dart in front of your face, ready to throw it at the dartboard in front of you, your thumb and index [and possibly middle] fingers are contacting the sides of the dart, and the rear fingers of your hand -- the ring and pinkie -- open up and outwards away from the dart as you throw it. Same idea -- a sabot.)

You might want to experiment with your grip in this manner, to find a grip that allows you to deliver the cue straight through, all the way to the Finish position (using SPF terminology) with no steering, unbalanced mass/forces, or obstacles (e.g. pads on your fingers or palm) getting in the way and thus pushing the cue to one side.

I hope this is helpful!
-Sean
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Sean has provided EXCELLENT information here that will save you years of frustration/stagnation if you read it carefully. I spent over 20 years with a stroke that twisted, primarily due to "snatching" the cue during contact. I had thought I used a very loose, proper grip, albeit a little too floppy in the wrist (ala Bustamante). I somehow worked through it, adjusting as needed--but that kept my game from progressing. My belief was that the floppy wrist kept me from snatching the cue and pulling the tip to the right on the follow through. Only really happened on firmer shots, so I really couldn't detect it when I bore down on shots with finesse. Someone suggested I firm up my grip slightly and quit "buggy whipping" my stroke arm. Most instructors will tell you that holding the cue in a light cradle is vital to a straight stroke, which is true for most people...but some of us need to keep our wrist aligned better throughout the stroke. As you tighten your grip, the tip moves on you. Keeping a consistent pressure on the cue (thumb, index and middle finger on level strokes, thumb, middle and ring finger on elevated strokes) has helped me huge. Another tip is adjusting the angle of your feet to the natural direction the cue hangs from your hand (so you're not fighting against your body's natural structure). Stand facing the table with the cue suspended at the balance point in your stroke hand, relaxed. Close your eyes and let it drift. Open your eyes and shuffle until the cue is in line with a shot. That's the way your muscles are built and lined up...your "natural point of aim".

Use that angle when stepping into a shot (having locked your hand into your hip as you line up shots) and you're not fighting against your body's normal alignment.
 
Bill,

Thanks for the vid! I saw everything I needed to see in the first few minutes. You line up with your eyes centered, favoring your right eye slightly. Your stroke is straight and smooth.

After a few shots your eye alignment moves over to slightly favor your left eye. You cue about a quarter to a half tip to the left side of the cue ball. As you stroke through the cue ball your grip tightens and you apply right english to compensate for this visual error. Notice the stroke wobble from the flexing action of the hand.

I was doing the same thing. Like Gene said, you may want to check for left eye dominance before you go any further with your quest. I tested and found I was right eye dominant. I learned to keep my right eye in charge by a consistent PSR and how I sight the object ball.

If you are right eye dominant, you are seeing center ball as slightly to the left of the middle of the cue ball. The correction for this is to move your head a fraction to the left. This will place the cue back to centered between your eyes and slightly favor the right eye, especially on the straight-ins. You will be hitting true center and your right english compensation/steering stroke should disappear with a little practice.

Best,
Mike
 
Geno has it right.

When I worked with Gene I mentioned to him like Mikjary that I felt I was able to align with my non-Dominant Right eye. It seemed like Mikjary I would miss a shot by a Diamond at times. How could that be? Even though I wear glasses my vision approaches 20-20. A good question may be if your right handed and good vision do you have a tendency to align with the right eye even though your left-eye-dominant. I used to shoot rifle competively and use my right eye for aiming. Did that affect my pool game? I now use a preshot routine that forces my left eye alignment.
On another note. I believe I saw this question in another post. Why one misses extreme cut shots. Since many align our bodys to the contact point < half ball hits. We have a tendency to align the body on a > half ball hit to half ball contact point. That is why we undercut these shots so often. We need to align our body to the ghost ball center. I pick out a spot on the rail and align to that when balls are close to the rail. I then double check it with Gene's edge alignments. I now have two alignments. You have to teach your mind what is right or wrong. If you don't tell your mind exactly what you want, it at times doesn't know what to do and will do it wrong. You mind might be saying your going to miss the ball if you align your body to a point that is not on the object ball.

Talking about grip. I know that the harder I stroke the more tendency I have to swing in towards the body on the stroke. I've talked to other good players that have the same problem. Just wanted to mention I have watched videos of Earl and learned two great things.
One in the Archer, Earl Tar Match. Since they had mics on I could hear Earls breathing techniques. I was amazed at his exhale breathing before shots.
The other was how Earl holds his cue. Not sure where I saw this and I'm not sure if he does this all the time. But his thumb and index fingers were straight down. He might be cradling like one of the posters mentions above. I now visualize my index perpendicular to the floor and the line it has to follow forward towards during practice.
I have also tried moving my arm closer to the body (tucked in) which prevents the inward stroke on harder shots. Maybe someone could chime in on this. It seems like I have seen instructional vids where the hand actually hits or bushes the chest/shirt at the end of the stroke.
 
Thanks for all of the suggestions so far. I will go to the table and try them soon.

Neil,

I definitely notice that the steering is worse if my right foot gets to the right of the cue ball, so I will have to watch that. Thanks.

I will have to talk with Gene to discuss his thoughts on the eye dominance issue.

Thanks again.
 
I don't understand why eye-dominance would be the issue.

When you were first shooting the cue ball down to the end rail and back - you were shooting shoftly and it looked like the cue ball was coming back straight. Did I miss something there? Wouldn't this tell you that you are properly lined up on the shot? How would eye-dominance come into play only when you are hitting the ball hard? Maybe Mikjary is right, but I'm not seeing the slight shift as far as where your chin is positioned. (In fairness, I'm still a bit skeptical about the whole eye-dominance issue, but I'm not educated enough to totally dismiss it).

When I'm having issues similiar to these it is usually my grip hand. I would try tweaking that first as Sean suggested.

One other thing - I always have a problem with this drill. I have found it is nearly impossible for me to see the exact center of the diamond on the far rail. This makes lining up the shot really difficult. What I do is put a piece of chalk right on that center diamond -this gives me a much better target that I can now used to base my alignment on.
 
mantis99 said:
Thanks for all of the suggestions so far. I will go to the table and try them soon.

Neil,

I definitely notice that the steering is worse if my right foot gets to the right of the cue ball, so I will have to watch that. Thanks.

I will have to talk with Gene to discuss his thoughts on the eye dominance issue.

Thanks again.
Click to expand...

Hi again,

You are experincing a couple of things.

Usually when we aim a shot we are aiming at a ball. When we are aiming on a spot on the table it is a little different and is harder to get the eyes in the correct position unless you know how.

Otherwise it is just hit and miss. If the eyes are not in the most correct position you can't even see if the stroke is straight let alone keep it straight or hit the cue ball in the center.

Again I have never seen anyone teach this but then again I havn't talked to too many teachers about this.

Call me tonight. i think you will be pleasantly surprised. It deffinitely has to do with the dominant eye.

Every player needs to know this.

Talk to you soon.... Geno............
 
BasementDweller said:
I don't understand why eye-dominance would be the issue.

When you were first shooting the cue ball down to the end rail and back - you were shooting shoftly and it looked like the cue ball was coming back straight. Did I miss something there? Wouldn't this tell you that you are properly lined up on the shot? How would eye-dominance come into play only when you are hitting the ball hard? Maybe Mikjary is right, but I'm not seeing the slight shift as far as where your chin is positioned. (In fairness, I'm still a bit skeptical about the whole eye-dominance issue, but I'm not educated enough to totally dismiss it).

When I'm having issues similiar to these it is usually my grip hand. I would try tweaking that first as Sean suggested.

One other thing - I always have a problem with this drill. I have found it is nearly impossible for me to see the exact center of the diamond on the far rail. This makes lining up the shot really difficult. What I do is put a piece of chalk right on that center diamond -this gives me a much better target that I can now used to base my alignment on.
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I actually had a piece of chalk at the diamond, but you couldn't see it on the video. My soft shots do tend to be much better than my hard shots, which is partly what has made me think that grip pressure plays a role, and that it may be magnified by having a stance that is not correct from the start. Of course a dominant eye issue could affect that. I have had other issues in the past with my stroke that generally seemed to boil down to grip pressure, so I imagine that is at least part of it.
 
I just spent over an hour on the phone with Gene, which he was very gracious in giving his time to me. I am convinced that I do have a left dominant eye, and I am seeing the line better after talking to gene and trying a few things. I think it will take some practice to really become natural and automatic like anything else, but I do think it will help my game quite a bit in the end.

I am not sure if the cue steering will go away from using a correct alignment for my left eye, or if I will still have to end up doing some drills to help control grip pressure. Either way, the time spent talking to Gene was well worth it, and he is a true asset to the game of pool.
 
mantis99 said:
I just spent over an hour on the phone with Gene, which he was very gracious in giving his time to me. I am convinced that I do have a left dominant eye, and I am seeing the line better after talking to gene and trying a few things. I think it will take some practice to really become natural and automatic like anything else, but I do think it will help my game quite a bit in the end.

I am not sure if the cue steering will go away from using a correct alignment for my left eye, or if I will still have to end up doing some drills to help control grip pressure. Either way, the time spent talking to Gene was well worth it, and he is a true asset to the game of pool.
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mantis99:

Sorry to get back to you so late on this. I'm glad that your call to Geno was helpful, as dominant eye issues *will* adversely affect your game during practice and actual play (and especially the latter, when you're under pressure, thinking about other things besides your fundamentals -- it's that Murphy's Law thing ;) ).

However, in reviewing your video, what's compelling to me, is that the error in your stroke only occurs when you're increasing the power. When you just lag the cue ball back and forth, you get good results -- no skew. But when you apply power, the skew is introduced. Methinks the "misplacement" of your dominant eye (that a few folks have observed) is just a coincidence. Why do I say that? Because when you deliver a cue SLOWLY, you're more apt to see issues with steering than a *stroked* shot. When you're delivering the cue slowly to the cue ball for a soft stroke, there's more time in there to go, "oops -- need that to go more left... nope -- scratch that -- it needs to go more right!" than if you were to just stroke the cue ball with authority. For eye dominance issues, one of the most difficult shots to do, are those long, diagonal (i.e. corner pocket to catercorner corner pocket) straight-in shots, hit at LAG speed. But I don't think that's your problem.

I'm thinking in your stroke, when you apply a bit of power, something is going awry -- a hitch appears. It could be wrist flexion, or some part of your hand bumping the cue (e.g. a pad on one of your fingers), or some muscle in either your hand or your wrist that is getting activated only on power shots. The fact that you're pinning your wrist (from what I can see) leads me to believe that some contact surface in your hand is "bumping" the cue when power is applied. It's hard to know for sure, until slow-motion video analysis is applied -- a technique that the stroke instructors -- e.g. randyg, dr9ball, or Scott Lee -- specialize in. (Speaking of which, that's an avenue that you might want to pursue!)

Anyway, I'm hoping that experimentation with your grip might help identify what it is. Please let us know as you progress!

-Sean
 
I do believe that my grip is part of the issue, and I also think I may at times be pulling my elbow in towards my body. It is not always just steering to the right, but sometimes I jump the cue ball up when attempting low hard draw, which I think happens because I snatch the back of the cue up with my hand causing the tip to dip quickly into the ball. It can even occur with a hit that is just below center which makes me think the tip is dipping hard into the CB just before contact to cause it to jump.

I have been doing the mother drills, trying to concentrate on a straight delivery and a light grip. I have also been just hitting balls into the corner pocket from the headstring using stripe balls and hitting the bottom stripe with varying speeds.

It is a challenge to stop yourself from over gripping the cue, so any drills or advice that has helped others would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Bill
 
much like mikjary except after a many year layoff, since starting a year ago, i cant stroke or figure out whats wrong for the life of me.probably gonna just have to let it go. no fun having once excelled at something and 25 years later not being able at all. its driving me nuts.
 
mantis99 said:
Thanks for all of the suggestions so far. I will go to the table and try them soon.

Neil,

I definitely notice that the steering is worse if my right foot gets to the right of the cue ball, so I will have to watch that. Thanks.

I will have to talk with Gene to discuss his thoughts on the eye dominance issue.

Thanks again.
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At my home table, I've made some guides to help my stance be consistent.

Set up a shot where the cb is on the middle spot, the ob halfway to a side pocket. (I even have a strip of painters tape from side pocket to side pocket to keep the shot consistent and to protect the table from repeated cuetip contact on one spot of the cloth).

When you set up for the shot, use a short strip of painters tape and stick one on the floor behind each heel, perpendicular to your foot. After you set up for that shot, look down and see if your heels are just in front of the tape pieces where they should be. It took me a few months to really dial in the exact spot best for me.

Anytime you get out of whack, you use these marks to help get back to your best stance. I like to do it every once in a while anyway, just in case I've developed bad habits.

fwiw,

Jeff Livingston
 
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