Stance

mantis99

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have been taking a strong look at my fundamentals lately, and was wondering how others approach their stance. I have always just gotten into a comfortable stance that seems to be in line with the shot, with no real specifics besides that. What key factors do you look for when finding your stance, and how might those affect your stroke?

I have been drilling a lot lately, and have found that I have a tendency to steer my cue to the right, causing unwanted spin. It seems as though it is coming from a combination of my outside fingers pushing the butt of the cue towards my body, and my elbow moving in towards my body, however, I can't help but feel like it is something in my stance that makes my arm want to move in towards my body. Any thoughts?
 
How about a picture or video of you going into your stance? If your arm feels uncomfortable, it may be putting unintentional backhand english as it tries to 'straighten' out. For me, and consistency I follow the same two step footwork everytime I step into a shot.
 
I had the same problem and fixed it. Are you right handed and right eye dominant?

Best,
Mike
 
I'm not an instructor so I'll leave this up to them. Just be careful when someone tells you to "just do what is comfortable for you", guys.
 
How about a picture or video of you going into your stance? If your arm feels uncomfortable, it may be putting unintentional backhand english as it tries to 'straighten' out. For me, and consistency I follow the same two step footwork everytime I step into a shot.

I will have to try and get some video up later tonight or tomorrow am
 
Yes and yes. I'd love to know how you fixed it.

Same here. I know the correct line to cue on, but for some shots (like when the cue ball is near the rail) I just cannot line up properly.
 
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Same here. I know the correct line to cue on, but for some shots (like when the cue ball is near the rail) reason I just cannot line up properly.

I barely got what you just said but I think it is a pot of gold.
 
Yes and yes. I'd love to know how you fixed it.

For years I played with no regard for eye dominance. I lined up and let it go. For periods of time I would run hundreds (131 high run) and string racks in rotation games. Without warning I started to notice a definite decline in my game. I worked hard, but something wasn't right.

I developed a slight twist in my stroke and would put right spin on every shot (right handed). Not being able to fix it, I quit the game. I picked it back up twenty years later and was determined to figure it out this time.

I read on these forums about eye dominance. I wondered what the hell that had anything to do with anything. Nobody ever talked about that years ago and the old schoolers on here still have their heads stuck in the sand about it. Nonsense! Mosconi and Lassiter never talked about it so just go practice harder! You'll get the results you seek.

Well, I'm here to tell you, if you're doing something wrong, it doesn't get better by reinforcing the wrong way. I knew that. Doing it right the first time is a lot easier. When everything goes to crap at the same time on your vehicle you don't replace 47 parts. You go to the source...the computer.

What changed my alignment and twisted my stroke? Why couldn't I hit the spot I was aiming at with the cue ball? The shot looked good, but I missed by half a diamond. I wasn't giving the right info to my brain. I took a close look at my alignment and found I was favoring my left eye, although it occasionally used my right eye.

I figured I must be left eye dominant and went with that. I didn't straighten out my stroke, but I was starting to pocket more balls. I figured over time I would come back and be running out again. It was weird to think about my dominant eye though. Never had in the past.

On a whim I decided to try out my right eye as my dominant eye. I turned my head and made the necessary adjustments. There was something familiar about the stance and it felt strangely comfortable. After a rack or two the stroke started to straighten out and I was hitting center ball more often than not. After a few days there was no more right english and I felt that I had conquered the problem after all this time.

Slowly a few bugs crept back in my game. I realized I was letting the non-dominant eye take over and I started missing easy shots. The key was to develop a PSR that forced my right eye to be in charge. The cue is centered between my eyes, but with a slight favoring of the right eye. I was shooting with too much left eye influence and compensating by putting right english on each shot. If I hadn't developed this problem, I would never have given a thought to having a dominant eye. That's why a lot of players dismiss it as crap. If it doesn't pertain to them, they know it can't be true. I used to be one of them, I guess.

Best,
Mike
 
Same here. I know the correct line to cue on, but for some shots (like when the cue ball is near the rail) I just cannot line up properly.

samething happens in the b-room (billiard room) , but only when I am starting. Once I get going I can see the line easily.
 
samething happens in the b-room (billiard room) , but only when I am starting. Once I get going I can see the line easily.

The billiards equipment is key to getting a good grasp of what people call " the line". What I've learned is the biggest mistake one can make is keeping your line constant. Or thinking the diamond system are diamonds.

Getting in line is pretty simple but the process to making it simple can be a life long journey. At the very beginning stages this line is only concept some hold to be something they can't yet make realistic...(it's only a guess). The mental canvas is grid wrong.

I never knew how off my line was until recently and there is still more I can do to shave off the fog.
 
The billiards equipment is key to getting a good grasp of what people call " the line". What I've learned is the biggest mistake one can make is keeping your line constant. Or thinking the diamond system are diamonds.

Getting in line is pretty simple but the process to making it simple can be a life long journey. At the very beginning stages this line is only concept some hold to be something they can't yet make realistic...(it's only a guess). The mental canvas is grid wrong.

I never knew how off my line was until recently and there is still more I can do to shave off the fog.

What did you do to improve your ability to see the line?
 
For years I played with no regard for eye dominance. I lined up and let it go. For periods of time I would run hundreds (131 high run) and string racks in rotation games. Without warning I started to notice a definite decline in my game. I worked hard, but something wasn't right.

I developed a slight twist in my stroke and would put right spin on every shot (right handed). Not being able to fix it, I quit the game. I picked it back up twenty years later and was determined to figure it out this time.

I read on these forums about eye dominance. I wondered what the hell that had anything to do with anything. Nobody ever talked about that years ago and the old schoolers on here still have their heads stuck in the sand about it. Nonsense! Mosconi and Lassiter never talked about it so just go practice harder! You'll get the results you seek.


Well, I'm here to tell you, if you're doing something wrong, it doesn't get better by reinforcing the wrong way. I knew that. Doing it right the first time is a lot easier. When everything goes to crap at the same time on your vehicle you don't replace 47 parts. You go to the source...the computer.

What changed my alignment and twisted my stroke? Why couldn't I hit the spot I was aiming at with the cue ball? The shot looked good, but I missed by half a diamond. I wasn't giving the right info to my brain. I took a close look at my alignment and found I was favoring my left eye, although it occasionally used my right eye.

I figured I must be left eye dominant and went with that. I didn't straighten out my stroke, but I was starting to pocket more balls. I figured over time I would come back and be running out again. It was weird to think about my dominant eye though. Never had in the past.

On a whim I decided to try out my right eye as my dominant eye. I turned my head and made the necessary adjustments. There was something familiar about the stance and it felt strangely comfortable. After a rack or two the stroke started to straighten out and I was hitting center ball more often than not. After a few days there was no more right english and I felt that I had conquered the problem after all this time.

Slowly a few bugs crept back in my game. I realized I was letting the non-dominant eye take over and I started missing easy shots. The key was to develop a PSR that forced my right eye to be in charge. The cue is centered between my eyes, but with a slight favoring of the right eye. I was shooting with too much left eye influence and compensating by putting right english on each shot. If I hadn't developed this problem, I would never have given a thought to having a dominant eye. That's why a lot of players dismiss it as crap. If it doesn't pertain to them, they know it can't be true. I used to be one of them, I guess.

Best,
Mike

I've never been a big believer in the whole dominant eye thing, but I am open to trying anything to improve. I have always lined up with both eyes right in the middle of the cue. I was told by one instructor that I probably didn't have a dominant eye, but some testing suggests the possibility of a slightly dominant right eye. The thing that makes me think this might have some merit, is that I tend not to steer the cue if I am looking right at the center of the CB, but if I look up and put the same stroke on the CB, I have a tendency towards right spin. My hand may be automatically adjusting for the changed sight line towards the dominant eye.

How did you go about adjusting for this?
 
You said it Perfectly.........

For years I played with no regard for eye dominance. I lined up and let it go. For periods of time I would run hundreds (131 high run) and string racks in rotation games. Without warning I started to notice a definite decline in my game. I worked hard, but something wasn't right.

I developed a slight twist in my stroke and would put right spin on every shot (right handed). Not being able to fix it, I quit the game. I picked it back up twenty years later and was determined to figure it out this time.

I read on these forums about eye dominance. I wondered what the hell that had anything to do with anything. Nobody ever talked about that years ago and the old schoolers on here still have their heads stuck in the sand about it. Nonsense! Mosconi and Lassiter never talked about it so just go practice harder! You'll get the results you seek.

Well, I'm here to tell you, if you're doing something wrong, it doesn't get better by reinforcing the wrong way. I knew that. Doing it right the first time is a lot easier. When everything goes to crap at the same time on your vehicle you don't replace 47 parts. You go to the source...the computer.

What changed my alignment and twisted my stroke? Why couldn't I hit the spot I was aiming at with the cue ball? The shot looked good, but I missed by half a diamond. I wasn't giving the right info to my brain. I took a close look at my alignment and found I was favoring my left eye, although it occasionally used my right eye.

I figured I must be left eye dominant and went with that. I didn't straighten out my stroke, but I was starting to pocket more balls. I figured over time I would come back and be running out again. It was weird to think about my dominant eye though. Never had in the past.

On a whim I decided to try out my right eye as my dominant eye. I turned my head and made the necessary adjustments. There was something familiar about the stance and it felt strangely comfortable. After a rack or two the stroke started to straighten out and I was hitting center ball more often than not. After a few days there was no more right english and I felt that I had conquered the problem after all this time.

Slowly a few bugs crept back in my game. I realized I was letting the non-dominant eye take over and I started missing easy shots. The key was to develop a PSR that forced my right eye to be in charge. The cue is centered between my eyes, but with a slight favoring of the right eye. I was shooting with too much left eye influence and compensating by putting right english on each shot. If I hadn't developed this problem, I would never have given a thought to having a dominant eye. That's why a lot of players dismiss it as crap. If it doesn't pertain to them, they know it can't be true. I used to be one of them, I guess.

Best,
Mike

Hi there mike,

If your eyes are not in the most correct position you can't even see if the stroke is straight and you might try to compensate in your stroke to make it right.

Alot of wisdom in this post. good job. geno...
 
Hi there mike,

If your eyes are not in the most correct position you can't even see if the stroke is straight and you might try to compensate in your stroke to make it right.

Alot of wisdom in this post. good job. geno...

Thanks for your help, Gene. Without your info I wouldn't have known about my problem in the first place. If any of the old schoolers knew about this, they kept it to themselves. Don't feed the fish. :grin:

Best,
Mike
 
I've never been a big believer in the whole dominant eye thing, but I am open to trying anything to improve. I have always lined up with both eyes right in the middle of the cue. I was told by one instructor that I probably didn't have a dominant eye, but some testing suggests the possibility of a slightly dominant right eye. The thing that makes me think this might have some merit, is that I tend not to steer the cue if I am looking right at the center of the CB, but if I look up and put the same stroke on the CB, I have a tendency towards right spin. My hand may be automatically adjusting for the changed sight line towards the dominant eye.

How did you go about adjusting for this?

In the past year I've done a lot of reading on the dominant eye and when it comes into play. We switch back and forth all day long with the visual signals our brain receives just going about our daily activities. Not everything you look at is directly in front of you. Your left and right eyes take turns sending info to the brain. Until you have to look at something in greater detail does your truly dominant eye come into the foreground.

As you walk into the shot, one eye may pick up the angle before the other. If your passive eye becomes dominant, you will line up incorrectly. Until you make a concerted effort to recognize when this happens, you will drive easy shots into the rail. They will look right, but you will be slightly off. You will jump up and steer your stroke to make the ball.

There will be red flags, uncomfortable feelings and uneasiness after you get in touch with your subconscious mind. You have to learn to look for these signals and get back up off of the shot. As you begin to understand the message you are getting from the subconscious mind, you will realize when your alignment is wrong and correct it. It knows how to make the ball. It is compensating with a crooked stroke and body english. If it could talk or had trouble codes you could print out, it would say something like, "Using wrong eye as dominant", or "PSR needs work". :smile:

I use a sighting method that is comfortable and forces me to stand in the same position behind the cue ball every time. It is part of my PSR and centers my eyes on the shot line. My brain takes this information and puts my body in the correct position. Without this consistent starting point, my passive eye tries to creep into the shot.

With my daily activities and pasttimes I've trained both sides of my body to function equally well. I didn't realize my eyes had adopted the same behavior and were sharing dominance, too. It took a couple of months of structured practice to retrain my body for pool. Sometimes the simple things get over looked and you forget the basics. It's good to revisit your fundamentals every so often. They're tough to fix later. :grin:

Best,
Mike
 
When I adjust for eye dominance in my stance like gene told me over the phone (which I did last night after reading your post, I don't notice much change in the steering. It may be that I just started trying it, and it needs more time, but their may be other causes for me also. I am going to try some more though and see what happens.

When I shoot the ball up table trying to make it come back to my tip, it still happens, even if I am not focusing hard on another target, so I am not certain if eye dominance is the cause. I am going to explore it further though. Thanks for the help.
 
Experiment with your grip to remove the unbalanced mass and forces of the hand

I have been taking a strong look at my fundamentals lately, and was wondering how others approach their stance. I have always just gotten into a comfortable stance that seems to be in line with the shot, with no real specifics besides that. What key factors do you look for when finding your stance, and how might those affect your stroke?

I have been drilling a lot lately, and have found that I have a tendency to steer my cue to the right, causing unwanted spin. It seems as though it is coming from a combination of my outside fingers pushing the butt of the cue towards my body, and my elbow moving in towards my body, however, I can't help but feel like it is something in my stance that makes my arm want to move in towards my body. Any thoughts?

mantis99:

You didn't yet post a video link (that I can see, anyway). But, in the meantime, you received a lot of great information here. Eye dominance is a biggie when it comes to subconscious steering of the cue. I think enough ground was covered with the posts you've received thus far on this topic (especially from Mike -- Mikjary) that I wouldn't even attempt to add to something that is probably as complete as it can be.

However, another thing to focus on is something you hinted on (bolded above), and not many players have the foresight, analytic skills, or intelligence to understand the physics behind it.

The human hand and wrist is of asymmetric construction, and possibly the worst design (mechanical engineering-wise) that can be used to hold and drive a cylindrical instrument forward. First, the hand -- as you've surmised -- has four fingers on one side of the cue, and one (the thumb) on the other side. Ignoring the fact that each finger is stronger or weaker than the others, if we compare the fingers to the thumb, and if a finger equals a "1" in terms of strength, then the thumb equals a "2" in terms of strength. (This is greatly simplified, of course -- the pinkie is much weaker than the index or middle fingers.) So we have a power of "4" on one side of the cue, and a power of "2" on the other. Or, instead of "power" we can also say "mass." In either case, you have double of something on one side of the cue -- the fingers side. Plus, take into consideration that the flexion side of the fingers (the natural direction the fingers take when closing into a fist) is facing inwards towards the cue's surface (towards your body), but the flexion side of the thumb faces backwards towards the butt of the cue. So we have the instance where the forces of the hand are unbalanced and facing in multiple directions, not in a single direction as would be the case with a human-engineered cradle or "clamp."

Let's also take into consideration the wrist -- it's designed to flex most optimally towards and away from your palm (towards and away from your body, if you were in your shooting stance holding the cue). The wrist's natural and optimum method of flexion is not in the direction that you're swinging the cue, which is the same motion as if you were waving your hand "hello."

With these simplistic analyses of the unbalanced construction of the human hand and wrist, it is no wonder that we have a problem with consistent swinging of the cue accurately.

So, one has to adapt a method of grip that attempts to balance these unbalanced forces. One way is to lessen the number of fingers contacting the cue. Many instructors advocate (and many world-class players use) a two-fingered grip -- two fingers + the thumb. (Two good examples are Dennis Orcullo and Ronnie Alcano.) The forces on either side of the cue are more or less balanced -- two fingers just about equals the strength and mass of the thumb. Plus, the tendency to "grab" the cue at any point in the stroke is lessened. (When the human hand is in its natural "fist" state, it's natural for the fingers to clamp closed -- the force of "4" on one side of the cue overpowers the thumb, driving the butt of the cue inwards towards your body.)

Another method, used in snooker, is to use a rear-fingered grip. That is, if you look at the design of your hand, you'll see that you have the "pincers" (the index finger + the thumb), and the "cradle" (the middle, ring, and pinkie). By resting the cue in the "cradle" (those three fingers curled under the cue, supporting it from underneath) and leaving the "pincer" fingers (index + thumb) pointing downwards, you remove the unbalanced forces on the side if the cue. Plus, when you deliver the cue forward with a nice relaxed cradle, you'll see the forward fingers (index, thumb, and possibly even the middle finger) open-up and outwards away from the cue, sort of like a sabot on a bullet. (This, by the way, is the same motion that happens when you throw a dart, but in reverse -- when you hold a dart in front of your face, ready to throw it at the dartboard in front of you, your thumb and index [and possibly middle] fingers are contacting the sides of the dart, and the rear fingers of your hand -- the ring and pinkie -- open up and outwards away from the dart as you throw it. Same idea -- a sabot.)

You might want to experiment with your grip in this manner, to find a grip that allows you to deliver the cue straight through, all the way to the Finish position (using SPF terminology) with no steering, unbalanced mass/forces, or obstacles (e.g. pads on your fingers or palm) getting in the way and thus pushing the cue to one side.

I hope this is helpful!
-Sean
 
I am going to try and get some video from a few angles up as soon as I can, but this weekend has and is going to be very busy with kid stuff and some other obligations. Hopefully I can one up before the weekend is out. Thanks for the help so far!
 
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