Stealing information?

[JoeyA]

For the most part it is always about whose ox is getting gored.

For some, if it isn't their ox getting gored, they say, "What's all the fuss?" If was their ox getting gored, THEY WOULD HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION, I assure you.

I think the thing that I find most distasteful is the fact that Dr. Dave does this service (his website and posting on the AZB Main Forum) FOR PROFIT. I've praised Dr. Dave for his contributions to pool but I was the first to warn that this would happen.

I thought by complaining loudly and in ADVANCE of the introduction of the Pro One video,that the publishing of Stan's material or information by anyone else would be unfair to Stan. It apparently fell on deaf ears.

If Dr. Dave had published Stan's information for no profit, I would still complain that it wasn't fair to Stan. The fact that Dr. Dave in essence profits from publishing Stan's information makes it even more distasteful.

Whether or not Dr. Dave's publishing Stan's information makes Pro One even more popular or not, is of no concern to me as far as the consideration of impropriety is concerned.

The bottom line is Dr. Dave should have shown Stan some professional courtesy AND HE DID NOT.

A man's deeds can be technically legal but still be morally repulsive.

 

[lfigueroa]

Of the hundreds that have watched my DVD you are near the bottom of the totem pole of understanding the system.

Why? because you CHOSE to not understand it. You could have but you had no desire or motivation to learn CTE PRO ONE.

You just took my work and bashed it on purpose.......

This is typical of the insanity you and your mindless followers espouse.

For the record:

You have no clue what I *or anyone else* choose to understand or how I choose to understand it.

You have no insight into my *or anyone else's* motivation or desire.

You cannot know what I *or anyone else* choose to do or not do on purpose.


But obviously it makes you feel better to say you do.

Lou Figueroa
hope I'm in
the right thread
this time

 

[stan shuffett]

This is typical of the insanity you and your mindless followers espouse.

For the record:

You have no clue what I *or anyone else* choose to understand or how I choose to understand it.

You have no insight into my *or anyone else's* motivation or desire.

You cannot know what I *or anyone else* choose to do or not do on purpose.


But obviously it makes you feel better to say you do.

Lou Figueroa

Your character is revealed.......you know what you did and I do too.

 

[stumpie71]

Very well said Joey A. If it's true that this information is now available on Dave's site for anyone to see that would be no different than making copies of VEPS and making it available for anyone free of charge.

 

[brophog]

If it's true that this information is now available on Dave's site for anyone to see that would be no different than making copies of VEPS and making it available for anyone free of charge.

No, that is a very important distinction between the video/audio and the methods expressed on that medium. The methods behind the shots on VEPS is common material that is already available. The video and audio, itself, is distinct from the methods expressed.

This distinction is one that seems very problematic in these threads tonight, and seemingly cannot be stressed enough. The DVD is more than a simple text summary.

 

[eezbank]

I remember when you made that prediction. I don't think we would even be having a discussion about this if more time had passed before the information was posted.

For the most part it is always about whose ox is getting gored.

For some, if it isn't their ox getting gored, they say, "What's all the fuss?" If was their ox getting gored, THEY WOULD HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION, I assure you.

I think the thing that I find most distasteful is the fact that Dr. Dave does this service (his website and posting on the AZB Main Forum) FOR PROFIT. I've praised Dr. Dave for his contributions to pool but I was the first to warn that this would happen.

I thought by complaining loudly and in ADVANCE of the introduction of the Pro One video,that the publishing of Stan's material or information by anyone else would be unfair to Stan. It apparently fell on deaf ears.

If Dr. Dave had published Stan's information for no profit, I would still complain that it wasn't fair to Stan. The fact that Dr. Dave in essence profits from publishing Stan's information makes it even more distasteful.

Whether or not Dr. Dave's publishing Stan's information makes Pro One even more popular or not, is of no concern to me as far as the consideration of impropriety is concerned.

The bottom line is Dr. Dave should have shown Stan some professional courtesy AND HE DID NOT.

A man's deeds can be technically legal but still be morally repulsive.

 

[Shaft]

I voted fair.

Dave did not upload Stan's videos for viewing. That would have been a copyright infringement and a foul.

CTE has been debated on this forum for years. Many attempts have been made to describe the method. So far these attempts have failed, in my opinion. Dave reported a summary of the various CTE methods as an academic exercise.

I respect Stan and applaud his work to make the video. I own a copy. I do not think Dave's summary will substitute for the video. (Unfortunately, I think the video also fails in some respects.)

This CTE aiming method is not patented and CTE is not wholey original to Stan Shuffet. Putting a new name to an old method does not make it original. Creating a video to demonstrate the method IS original, but Dave did not steal the video.

 

[SeanChamp]

Chris,

Dr. Dave referred to me as a snakeoil salesman on his site........

Stan

That is just a straight up lie. That portion of Dave's website was there well before your DVD came out.

begin rant

First, Dave has done more to help people learn the game of pool then you could ever dream of helping.

But everyone better stop offering any "free" advice on any systems because I'm sure there is someone who originally came up with the idea or system who feels it shouldn't be offered to the general public. So sayeth Stan. No more "corner 5", no more "ghost ball", no more "plus 2", no more "ultimate aiming", no more anything.

Let's just get this out in the open, you "aiming system" freaks are just out there. You are looking for a "weight loss pill" for pool. Here's a tip, shoot more f'in balls! You don't miss because you don't know how to aim, you miss because you failed to execute!I mean holy shit, I came to this forum thinking there would be intelligent conversation, and there is most of the time, but jesus f'in christ, stop with all the aiming shit.

This is not meant to say that there is not value in your systems, all people learn and visualize different ways, its just that some of you take it way to far. I actually considered buying the DVD til now, in hopes of learning another possible way to teach others how to aim.

end rant

God, looking at this I sound like a dick, but come on, no copyright infringement occurred. If anything, I'd say Dave did more for your DVD sales than you did.

 

[Neil]

That is just a straight up lie. That portion of Dave's website was there well before your DVD came out.

begin rant

First, Dave has done more to help people learn the game of pool then you could ever dream of helping.

But everyone better stop offering any "free" advice on any systems because I'm sure there is someone who originally came up with the idea or system who feels it shouldn't be offered to the general public. So sayeth Stan. No more "corner 5", no more "ghost ball", no more "plus 2", no more "ultimate aiming", no more anything.

Let's just get this out in the open, you "aiming system" freaks are just out there. You are looking for a "weight loss pill" for pool. Here's a tip, shoot more f'in balls! You don't miss because you don't know how to aim, you miss because you failed to execute!I mean holy shit, I came to this forum thinking there would be intelligent conversation, and there is most of the time, but jesus f'in christ, stop with all the aiming shit.

This is not meant to say that there is not value in your systems, all people learn and visualize different ways, its just that some of you take it way to far. I actually considered buying the DVD til now, in hopes of learning another possible way to teach others how to aim.

end rant

God, looking at this I sound like a dick, but come on, no copyright infringement occurred. If anything, I'd say Dave did more for your DVD sales than you did.

The only part you seem to have gotten right was your screen name.

 

[SeanChamp]

The only part you seem to have gotten right was your screen name.

Seriously.........that's weak.

 

[TATE]

Chris,

Dr. Dave referred to me as a snakeoil salesman on his site........

Stan

Stan,

I just went back and reviewed Dave's site. He wasn't referring to you at all - he wrote that long ago and I remember reading it and if I recall referred to what they called "back hand english" back then.

I consider his analysis of your system as respectable. He's a scientist and he thinks as one - in my opinion he's not biased except to supprt logic and fact.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne

I would be surprised if Dave wouldn't take down any reference to you or Pro One at your request. I also think if he were to do so, it would hurt your cause. Consider that.

Why don't you write him and explain, line by line, what you object to. I am sure Dave is completely open to reason. He's very reasonable - truly. He even lets me argue with him!


Chris

 

[dr_dave]

Stan,

You're looking at it all wrong. Dr. Dave is a respected scientist and when he outlined your system, it lended credibility to you. You need to look at the big picture - it recognizes your work as a legit aiming system and separates you from the crackpots.

His web site is a body of knowledge and it's an advertisement for your material. This is the truth - I have been late to buy it, but I decided to do it after Dr. Dave recognized your work.

Unless you asked him to exclude your material and he refused, he did nothing wrong unless he infringed on copyrighted, trademarked, or patented material.

Chris

Chris,

Dr. Dave referred to me as a snakeoil salesman on his site........

Stan

Stan,

I don't think this is true, and I am sorry you think this. I certainly do not think you are a "snake-oil" salesman. You seem like a nice man and a good instructor.

Respectfully,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Stan,

I just went back and reviewed Dave's site. He wasn't referring to you at all - he wrote that long ago and I remember reading it and if I recall referred to what they called "back hand english" back then.

I consider his analysis of your system as respectable. He's a scientist and he thinks as one - in my opinion he's not biased except to supprt logic and fact.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threa...ng.html#ProOne

I would be surprised if Dave wouldn't take down any reference to you or Pro One at your request. I also think if he were to do so, it would hurt your cause. Consider that.

Why don't you write him and explain, line by line, what you object to. I am sure Dave is completely open to reason. He's very reasonable - truly. He even lets me argue with him!

Chris

Chris,

FYI, something is wrong with your link. The URL is: billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne
Here's a link that works:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne​

Regards,
Dave

 

[brad21156]

I voted foul.


Why? Because Dr. Dave announced prior to my DVD release on AZ that he would likely put portions of my info on his site. Naturally, I would not want my info to be on his site. Dr. Dave never asked for permission. I knew that DR. Dave was going get some of my info.........so with that mindset I okayed and even encouraged Dave S. to put up some info on AZ just to clear up some issues for interested viewers that had the DVD.

I can tell you this....it's not much fun to sink a lot of time and effort into a project only to have the Dr. to say he's going to use it on his site.

I had hoped he would wait a year or so before charting out my info.....Having said that, the DVD is practically a must have for anyone seriously wanting to learn CTE/PRO ONE.

I guess what Dave did is okay by his standards but I would never do that to him.

Stan

Stan, thanks for posting your feelings on this. I'm sure unless someone puts the work into a project like this not to mention your investment in both time and money it would be hard to understand the damage that was done here.

 

[TATE]

Chris,

FYI, something is wrong with your link. The URL is: billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne
Here's a link that works:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne​

Regards,
Dave

Thanks - corrected.

Stan seems like a good guy - I'm sure you guys can work it all out.

Chris

 

[GaryB]

Seriously.........that's weak.

You are well named.

 

[Rich93]

Chris,

Dr. Dave referred to me as a snakeoil salesman on his site........

Stan

I was curious enough to check this out because I don't recall Dave ever being disrespectful or engaging in name calling. I searched Dave's entire site for the phrase "snake oil". It comes up three times - twice from his Billiard Digest articles and once in his aiming FAQ. In none of these did he refer to Stan or anyone else by name. Dave can speak for himself, but I'm quite sure he didn't have Stan in mind when he wrote the words. I suspect he was thinking of the type of statements made on AZB by some of the devoted followers of various systems. Here are the quotes:

I first came up with Dave's Aiming Method (DAM) as a joke to mock some people that try to promote various aiming systems with outrageous claims and snake-oil-salesman type statements, but I also have some serious and useful recommendations below. (Pool and Billiard Aiming FAQ).

Here’s the bottom line: Aiming ain’t easy! If it were, pool would not be as challenging and fun as it is. Please resist the temptation to buy into the “snake-oil” sales pitches common with aiming system “marketing.” (Billiard Digest, June 2011)

At the beginning of the article, I announced a new aiming system with snake-oil-salesman style. (Billiard Digest, November 2008)

 

[pablocruz]

Dave is nothing more than a person who clings to another for personal gain, especially without giving nothing in return, and usually with the implication or effect of exhausting the others resources!! In short, Dave you are a parasite!!

 

[OnTheMF]

I voted foul.

...

I guess what Dave did is okay by his standards but I would never do that to him.

Stan

Hey Stan,

Let me start by saying I do own a copy of your DVD, and I have watched it a few times over. I very much enjoyed the high production value, and you did an all around excellent job. Much better than most pool DVD's out there.

That said, I think it's absolutely hilarious that you'd vote foul here. I mean, come on, are you paying royalties to Hal Houle? Your system is definitely derivative of his CTE system, you even say so on the DVD. Don't you think it's hypocritical to say Dr. Dave has wronged you by reposting some of the information, when you're doing the exact same thing, but even worse you're charging money for it?

 

[stan shuffett]

Hey Stan,

Let me start by saying I do own a copy of your DVD, and I have watched it a few times over. I very much enjoyed the high production value, and you did an all around excellent job. Much better than most pool DVD's out there.

That said, I think it's absolutely hilarious that you'd vote foul here. I mean, come on, are you paying royalties to Hal Houle? Your system is definitely derivative of his CTE system, you even say so on the DVD. Don't you think it's hypocritical to say Dr. Dave has wronged you by reposting some of the information, when you're doing the exact same thing, but even worse you're charging money for it?

OntheMF,


Thanks for the nice comments about my DVD.


So, you think my vote is funny and you think I am a hypocrit.

You are putting me in bad light without the facts!!!!

What you said about me without facts may be ok by your standards but I would never say things like that about you without the facts.

Have a nice day,

Stan