Step #1 To Improve The Image Of Pocket Billiards

That's a very good article & explains the system rather well. It's a system of honor. Honor to your competitors. Honor to the game. AND honor to one's self.

Any game can be a game a honor. It's just up to players of that game whether or not they are going be honorable.

Like JoeyA suggested the honorable players have to assist in putting an end to sharking. At least at the professional level.

Winning is only honorable if one does so with honor.

I can only hope to live long enough to see an article written about pocket billiards like that article about golf. What that article talks about is why I had my 3 sons play junior golf.

Golf can build character perhaps because it is so difficult to play well & so easy to cheat. But the nature of the game being what it is, oneself against the course, it teaches that if one does cheat one is cheating one's self.

I doubt that I will live long enough to ever see an article such as that golf article ever written about pocket billiards.

However I take solace in knowing that there are a great many that play pocket billiards that are honorable & it is most certainly the majority. It is a shame that so many have to suffer a brand brought on by so few.

I wish CJ Wiley's slogan of 'The Game Is the Teacher' was a reference to the game teaching character & honor.

Well maybe if we start changing the image today the game will be of a good image by the time my Grandson that will be born in October takes up the game.

We can only Hope.
 
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That article is funny. Golfers do cheat and some of the best are not above it. Have you ever gambled on golf? I have and it's not much different than pool. You have to be aware of what's going on.

The biggest difference in pool and golf starts with the self image of some of you IMO. Some of you are so negative and so critical of everything pool related. You exaggerate how bad pool and pool players are yet you deny the same qualities are in other sports or athletes.

The mindset that pool is a dirty low life go nowhere sport is what needs to change. That is the first step.
 
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I havent read the article, i will for sure.

I have always called fouls on myself. I have no problem with that, never thought twice about not calling one. I been pretty lucky over the years, i never had problems with action or players i've played. Me and cotton pull moves on each other sometimes but were close friends, so its all good. but in a serious situation of real $$$ i have never had a issue in 28 years.
 
Paul Schofield said:
Play fouls on all balls. Players need to call fouls on themselves. We should not need referees for anything more than to clarify rules.
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This is pretty much what we see in snooker. Players do call fouls on themselves, etc. They also carry themselves professionally - most of them at least.

Now, what happens when amateur snooker players gamble? I don't know, but I'm guessing it's not all that professional. It can be, as it can be in pool also (as stated by Fatboy and others).

What is the difference here then? IMO it's in what the public gets to see. In snooker, the public image is that of professionalism.

As to the original post, I'm not quite sure that rules will be able establish a code of honor. Pool would surely benefit from such a code, no doubt. How to make this happen is beyond me at least for now.

J.S.
 
J.S. said:
This is pretty much what we see in snooker. Players do call fouls on themselves, etc. They also carry themselves professionally - most of them at least.

Now, what happens when amateur snooker players gamble? I don't know, but I'm guessing it's not all that professional. It can be, as it can be in pool also (as stated by Fatboy and others).

What is the difference here then? IMO it's in what the public gets to see. In snooker, the public image is that of professionalism.

As to the original post, I'm not quite sure that rules will be able establish a code of honor. Pool would surely benefit from such a code, no doubt. How to make this happen is beyond me at least for now.

J.S.
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I would guess that 99% of "the public" view pool and snooker as the same thing.
 
(((Satori))) said:
I would guess that 99% of "the public" view pool and snooker as the same thing.
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Possibly. Where I'm from the discussion with people not really familiar with either usually goes something like this: "Snooker's the one with the big table you see on Eurosport, right? Ronnie O'Sullivan is the best, isn't he? So is pool the one they play in bars then?".

My point in bringing snooker into this discussion was that we can find an even closer example than golf for an effective code of honor referred to in the original post.
 
J.S. said:
Possibly. Where I'm from the discussion with people not really familiar with either usually goes something like this: "Snooker's the one with the big table you see on Eurosport, right? Ronnie O'Sullivan is the best, isn't he? So is pool the one they play in bars then?".

My point in bringing snooker into this discussion was that we can find an even closer example than golf for an effective code of honor referred to in the original post.
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The image seems to be tied in with the bars then, not the honoring of the rules.

Come to think of it, I do believe that the association with bars does cast a shadow on pool. If golf were associated with bars, if you had to go to a bar to play golf, I doubt it would carry the classy image it has. Maybe more upscale pool halls and marketing to more rich businessmen (guys who never cheat?) is the answer. But seriously, maybe if we want to improve the image of pool we need to remove the bca and apa from the bars.

I guess pool does carry somewhat of a negative image. I never really thought about it much.
 
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BTW, I'm against cheating and fully support being honorable. My point is that holding an image in your head of pool players being unhonorable is wrong.
 
(((Satori))) said:
BTW, I'm against cheating and fully support being honorable. My point is that holding an image in your head of pool players being unhonorable is wrong.
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I guess you never saw any road players that just came from a car wash and now they want to wager a huge bag of quarters playing 9 Ball?
 
Cracktherack said:
I guess you never saw any road players that just came from a car wash and now they want to wager a huge bag of quarters playing 9 Ball?
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There are bed eggs all around. If you think Scooter is the poster child for pool you have a twisted sense of the state of the game. There are some road player that do have a sense of honor and will actually call a foul on themselves, I have seen it seen it more than you would imagine. Because a lot of people that do try to grind out a living playing the game play it because they love it and people that love it honor it by embracing the rules and not just the letter but the spirit of the rules.
 
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IMO the biggest difference between golf and pool is the comfort factor for neophytes.

First experience with golf is a pleasant outdoor environment with fresh air and warm sun.

I don't think there is a need to elaborate on pool's restrictive indoor loud uncertain environment.

No wonder golf attracts more attention.
 
Paul Schofield said:
A code of honor should be an important part of the rules.

If this topic interests you, this ESPN essay says it all. It is a very good read:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/cheat/columns/story?columnist=harig_bob&id=2964423

Our sport is similar to golf in so many ways. Play fouls on all balls. Players need to call fouls on themselves. We should not need referees for anything more than to clarify rules.
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The example Jones set still lives on. In the recent USGA Junior Amateur golf championship, 16 year old Davis Riley called a moving ball penalty on himself in the final holes, losing his lead and eventually losing the championship. I don't think anybody else saw the ball move.
 
When Bob Toski had just started playing the Senior Tour someone accused him of marking his ball improperly on the greens in a way that got the ball that ever so little bit closer to the hole.

Toski was so incensed that someone would suggest that he would cheat that he decided to show everyone that he did not need the money or even the titles bad enough to cheat. He did not need them so much so that he would not even compete for them. He quit the Sr. Tour.

That was a bad occurrence & consequences for both Mr. Toski & the Sr. Tour. But that is how much one's honor can mean to an individual.

To some individuals it means nothing because they have no honor.

I wonder what kind of honor the man that accused Mr. Toski had. I'm not saying he did but it seems that he is the one that had that picture of a way to get even that extremely slight advantage in HIS mind & quite possibly in his heart.

Until unacceptable behavior is rooted out of the game & the public gets a new perception of the game & the people that play it. Pool will always have a seedy image of a game played by individuals of poor character.

CJ Wiley & others tried to change that image back in the day & for awhile things were good for the game. But the grass roots stories from bar rooms & pool halls take over in the public's eye & it's back to square one.

It's almost like there are two different games. One played by gentlemen & one played by thugs.

The public knows more about the one played by thugs.

Other games are not really any different. There are gentlemen & thugs in every other sport & perhaps even in Golf. But it does not appear so in Golf & the public's perception is that there are no thugs in Golf. Even if a golfer that may be having all kinds of other problems with alcohol, gambling, drugs or even cheating on their wives, they would not cheat while playing Golf. That is the public's perception.

But in pool, a pool player will do anything to win. He will lie about his ability. He will cough & drop his stick while you are in your stroke. He will distract you in some way by asking you a question that makes you look away while he makes an illegal shot. Pool players are lying, cheating, hard drinking, no goods, with not one moral bone in their body. That is the public's perception of a pool player.

How long has pool been around compared to Golf & look at where they each are? If pool keeps doing what it has done since it's demise it will remain where it is.

Why can't Billiards follow in Golf's foot steps? The players, a player, should form a Professional Cue Sport Players Association & start taking their destiny into their own hands & stop being the pawns of promoters & tournament director, etc. Nothing against them. The players in general have by default simply handed over the power & responsibility to those guys.

No 'one' can do it alone but as a group they can do it together just like the PGA did. It might have to be take two steps back & a little more suffering so that a move forward can actually take place..

How is it said...No pain...No gain.
 
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(((Satori))) said:
Some of you are so negative and so critical of everything pool related. You exaggerate how bad pool and pool players are yet you deny the same qualities are in other sports or athletes.
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"I don't think I would be here if I had not called it on myself because I would be thinking about it, and if I had not called it on myself, every time I look at the trophy, it would be tarnished," [Mark] Wilson said.
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The above is the difference between a professional and someone who is not. In professional pool the instances of someone doing the right thing are so rare we make threads about them as if it were a miracle (recent example: Tony Robles). Mark Griffin has to draw people pictures of what is acceptable attire. That's pretty sad. There's a giant gap between professionals and not, except in pool.

Afterward, when sportswriter O.B. Keeler sought to applaud [Bobby] Jones for his sportsmanship, the golfer implored him not to even write about the incident.

"You might as well praise me for not robbing banks," Jones said.
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Link to the video of Earl talking about how he has cheated.

Now Earl himself is just one man. He does not embody the whole of pool anymore than Tony Robles (polar opposite in this example) does. But still, the arguably greatest 9-ball player to have ever lived cheats. What a great role-model he is.

The more important question for me is why people, in pool, have this attitude. Why are they too lazy to dress up, why can they not behave? I think it is that whole, "growing up on the road", issue. Playing to eat. Hustle everyone. Screw them before they screw you. Once you have that mindset, it's probably hard to get out of.

This post is too long already to add more thoughts.
 
Stereotyping is a wonderful thing

Unfortunately you are the company you keep.

You can be the most educated upstanding citizen to ever walk the planet.

You can do volunteer work for whatever charity, giving yourself 100% to helping others.

You can the best father, husband, son, daughter, provide for your family...etc.

You win a contest to announce on the 50 yard line at half time at the super bowl all of your wonderful traits and also tell them you are a pool player. To 99% of the crowd and the other 100 million watching...YOU ARE A LOW LIFE

I accept I am the company I keep; I don't see it changing too soon.

We are like a cult sport.

I love pool
 
Bobby Jones was a special person. The majority of todays pool players aren't in his level of class.

Paul Schofield said:
A code of honor should be an important part of the rules.

If this topic interests you, this ESPN essay says it all. It is a very good read:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/cheat/columns/story?columnist=harig_bob&id=2964423

Our sport is similar to golf in so many ways. Play fouls on all balls. Players need to call fouls on themselves. We should not need referees for anything more than to clarify rules.
Click to expand...
 
Paul Schofield said:
A code of honor should be an important part of the rules.

If this topic interests you, this ESPN essay says it all. It is a very good read:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/cheat/columns/story?columnist=harig_bob&id=2964423

Our sport is similar to golf in so many ways. Play fouls on all balls. Players need to call fouls on themselves. We should not need referees for anything more than to clarify rules.
Click to expand...

In many situations you can't tell if it was a foul. If it's all ball fouls, if you are leaning over, it's not easy to tell if you brushed a ball or not, and to have your opponent make the call is a bit self-serving for him. On a close hit, well, we all know what happens there. It can be genuinely hard to say how the hit is, even in things like no rail after contact, I have called a foul on myself where the other guy though it was good, and maybe it was good but it looked bad to me. I'd rather have a ref call the fouls.

I think most pool players have as much honor in how they conduct themselves as any other "gentelman" sport, aside from the road hustlers and known cheats. In all my time playing, I would say I ran into maybe half dozen people I would not trust without watching them all the time. I have played hill hill tournament matches where I would not be watching the opponent, and all of a sudden he is handing me the cueball because he double hit it or something. I am often in tournament with my son so I have a habit of watching his games as much as mine hehe, so people that play me have a good chance of getting away with stuff. I'm pretty sure no-one has. I've also spoken up against a team-mate in league play when I though there was a foul and there was a debate between the players, it's easy to just say "I did not see it" or "I don't know" but at the same time, not so easy LOL. Same thing for advising a new player about a rule they may not know about like how a push-out is played, or what no rail after a hit is, usually new players will sign up for a tournament and get chewed up by the better players. I don't like that, I'd rather they finish our set knowing more than when they started, I don't think I have seen many players not point out to a newer player if there was a foul on them, not just myself doing that.
 
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Ghosst said:
The above is the difference between a professional and someone who is not. In professional pool the instances of someone doing the right thing are so rare we make threads about them as if it were a miracle (recent example: Tony Robles). Mark Griffin has to draw people pictures of what is acceptable attire. That's pretty sad. There's a giant gap between professionals and not, except in pool.



Link to the video of Earl talking about how he has cheated.

Now Earl himself is just one man. He does not embody the whole of pool anymore than Tony Robles (polar opposite in this example) does. But still, the arguably greatest 9-ball player to have ever lived cheats. What a great role-model he is.

The more important question for me is why people, in pool, have this attitude. Why are they too lazy to dress up, why can they not behave? I think it is that whole, "growing up on the road", issue. Playing to eat. Hustle everyone. Screw them before they screw you. Once you have that mindset, it's probably hard to get out of.

This post is too long already to add more thoughts.
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I think, and have written in another post, that Earl overall is very honorable towards the game. He will do the right thing almost all the time. I don't think he will ever actually cheat aside from not calling a foul on himself if it was not something obvious. That is not really "cheating" though, just playing within the rules. Earl's thing is that he takes the game itself as more important than the opponent, or himself for that matter. If something was not done right, even if it will favor the opponent, he will be against that. I've seen him argue with a ref when he called a foul against someone he was playing with if Earl though there was no foul, more than once. Wll, maybe not argue, but disagree.
 
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