straight pool safety/foul question

[dmgwalsh]

A situation happened last night that resulted in a difference of opinion. My opponent scratched. I intentionally fouled putting the cue ball on the top rail, in the middle. He then intentionally hit the ball into the pocket. He is now on two fouls, I have ball in hand in the kitchen. I wanted to just hit it again back to the top rail, putting me on two fouls and him on two fouls. He insisted that I could not do that and that I had to hit the cue ball downtable. I said what happens if I don't and just hit it uptable to the end rail and take my second foul. He said I couldn't do it and I would still have to shoot again.

I've seen Grady Mathews, Mizerak, Pat Fleming and others go through this two foul minuet before and never saw one of them intentially scratch to give the opponent a tougher position from which to make the final safe, so I figured that he couldn't be right.

What is the correct answer as to what I have to do with the cue ball in the kitchen and what the penalty is if I don't?

Thanks You for your input.
Dennis

 

[The Kiss]

The ball on a pocket scratch has to go over the head string to be a legal scratch/shot...If the guy does'nt know the rules you can hook the cue and tap it leave him hooked...I forget what the penalty is for failure for a legal shot....

Another great straight pool rule is if you pick up the cue ball before it scratches and falls into a pocket it is minus 16 balls for the offender..

 

[DeadAim]

...you can hook the cue and tap it leave him hooked...

You cannot tap the cue ball with the stick/ferrule, this is a 15 point foul; you must ALWAYS hit the cue ball with the "TIP".

 

[woody_968]

The ball on a pocket scratch has to go over the head string to be a legal scratch/shot...

Could you point out where this is in the rules? I didnt see anything close to it in the 14.1 section. The general rules does say that if it doesnt cross the headstring its a foul, but then says its the other players shot.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

A situation happened last night that resulted in a difference of opinion. My opponent scratched. I intentionally fouled putting the cue ball on the top rail, in the middle. He then intentionally hit the ball into the pocket. He is now on two fouls, I have ball in hand in the kitchen. I wanted to just hit it again back to the top rail, putting me on two fouls and him on two fouls. He insisted that I could not do that and that I had to hit the cue ball downtable. I said what happens if I don't and just hit it uptable to the end rail and take my second foul. He said I couldn't do it and I would still have to shoot again.

I've seen Grady Mathews, Mizerak, Pat Fleming and others go through this two foul minuet before and never saw one of them intentially scratch to give the opponent a tougher position from which to make the final safe, so I figured that he couldn't be right.

What is the correct answer as to what I have to do with the cue ball in the kitchen and what the penalty is if I don't?

Thanks You for your input.
Dennis

I think this says it all. In the future, you can find the rules at www.bca-pool.com:

3.10 CUE BALL IN HAND BEHIND THE HEAD STRING
This situation applies in specific games whereby the opening break is administered or a player’s scratching is penalized by the incoming player having cue ball in hand behind the head string. The incoming player may place the cue ball anywhere behind the head string. The shooting player may shoot at any object ball as long as the base of the object ball is on or below the head string. He may not shoot at any ball, the base of which is above the head string, unless he first shoots the cue ball below the head string and then by hitting a rail causes the cue ball to come back above the head string and hit the object ball. The base of the ball (the point of the ball touching the table) determines whether it is above or below the head string. If the incoming player inadvertently places the cue ball on or below the head string, the referee or the op-posing player must inform the shooting player of improper positioning of the cue ball before the shot is made. If the opposing player does not so inform the shooting player before the shot is made, the shot is considered legal. If the shooting player is informed of improper positioning, he must then reposition the cue ball. If a player positions the cue ball completely and obviously outside the kitchen and shoots the cue ball, it is a foul. (Refer to rule 2.21) When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, it remains in hand (not in play) until the player strikes the cue ball with his cue tip. The cue ball may be adjusted by the player’s hand, cue, etc., so long as it remains in hand. Once the cue ball is in play per the above, it may not be impeded in any way by the player; to do so is to commit a foul. Additionally, if the shot fails to contact a legal object ball or fails to drive the cue ball over the head string, the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules.


Jude M. Rosenstock

 

[Jal]

Rule 3.39 of the General Rules states that your opponent can call it a foul or insist that you replay the shot. If he calls it a foul, then presumably he would have to accept the cueball in position since ball in hand only applies to a scratched or jumped cueball, as far as I know. If he chooses to make you shoot again, no foul or penalty is assessed to you. At least, this is the case with no referee presiding over the match.

With a referee, the rule states that it is a foul...no ifs, ands or buts. In this case, I would think that your opponent would have to accept the cueball in position since no scratch occured.

However, this situation came up during the 1966 U.S. Open Finals ("Clash of the Titans") between Joe Balsis and Irving Crane. Mr. Balsis had ball in hand and deliberately fouled by banking it off the cushion beyond the headstring, letting the english bring it back behind the headstring and off the opposite long rail, with it stopping near the middle of the head rail. If the above interpretation of the rules is correct, why didn't he simply try what you did?

At any rate, since in your case there was no referee, it appears that your opponent was right.

Jim

 

[woody_968]

Rule 3.39 of the General Rules states that your opponent can call it a foul or insist that you replay the shot. If he calls it a foul, then presumably he would have to accept the cueball in position since ball in hand only applies to a scratched or jumped cueball, as far as I know. If he chooses to make you shoot again, no foul or penalty is assessed to you.

That is interesting, the way I read it the opposing player can choose not to call a foul and can make you shoot again. But since he is not calling a foul you could just do the same thing again and again untill he accepts the foul or it gets REALLY ugly LOL.

 

[dmgwalsh]

You cannot tap the cue ball with the stick/ferrule, this is a 15 point foul; you must ALWAYS hit the cue ball with the "TIP".

I saw Reyes do that on tape against Dallas West. 15 point foul and Reyes had to break a new rack... He won anyway. Dennis

 

[dmgwalsh]

I think this says it all. In the future, you can find the rules at www.bca-pool.com:

3.10 [/B]Additionally, if the shot fails to contact a legal object ball or fails to drive the cue ball over the head string, the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules.


Jude M. Rosenstock

Thanks for the link. In the future, I'll look there.

So, in other words, the other guy gets ball in hand in the kitchen rather than shooting from the rail if I make that foul. (Actually, I lagged and left him about 1/8 " off the rail)

I'll have to look at those old tapes again of Sigel, Miz, Mathews, et al and see what they did and figure out why.

 

[Bob Jewett]

...
What is the correct answer as to what I have to do with the cue ball in the kitchen and what the penalty is if I don't?

As others have pointed out, you have to shoot the cue ball out of balk when it is in hand. The standard solution is to play the cue ball two cushions (foot, side) to return to the center of the head rail without hitting any ball. As your opponent is on two, you could also try the two-cushions-first shot to skim the side of the rack and leave your opponent frozen on the end rail, if you want to be fancy. That's a standard safety shot for 14.1 players and not as hard as it looks. If you miss the balls, it's no big loss.

 

[woody_968]

So, in other words, the other guy gets ball in hand in the kitchen rather than shooting from the rail if I make that foul. (Actually, I lagged and left him about 1/8 " off the rail)

Thats not what I get out of it. It says ball in hand according to the game rules and 14.1 does not give ball in hand for failing to make a legal hit.

The point that was made that would go along with what your opponent said was that if the game does not have an officail he doesnt have to call the foul and can make you shoot over. If he does call the foul he would have to shoot from where the cueball was positioned after your shot.

 

[Jal]

.....If he does call the foul he would have to shoot from where the cueball was positioned after your shot.

According to the general rules quoted by Jude Rosenstock above:

...Additionally, if the shot fails to contact a legal object ball or fails to drive the cue ball over the head string, the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules.

But according to rule 6.11 for 14.1 which covers the penalties for fouls:

One point deducted for each foul. Note: penalties are more severe for deliberate fouls (Rule of Play 6.7.5) and third “Successive Fouls” (6.12 below). Incoming player accepts cue ball in position unless foul was a jumped cue ball, pocket scratch, deliberate foul (Rule of Play 6.7.5) or third successive foul.

The deliberate foul part refers to direct interference with a ball.

So if you take the 14.1 rules as overriding the general rules, the opponent must accept the cueball in position if he calls the foul. This jives with what happened after Balsis played his foul/safety: Crane played the cueball from where it ended up on the head cushion. But why didn't Balsis just hit it there directly rather than going two rails to accomplish the same thing?

Jim

 

[dmgwalsh]

According to the general rules quoted by Jude Rosenstock above:

...Additionally, if the shot fails to contact a legal object ball or fails to drive the cue ball over the head string, the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules.

But according to rule 6.11 for 14.1 which covers the penalties for fouls:

One point deducted for each foul. Note: penalties are more severe for deliberate fouls (Rule of Play 6.7.5) and third “Successive Fouls” (6.12 below). Incoming player accepts cue ball in position unless foul was a jumped cue ball, pocket scratch, deliberate foul (Rule of Play 6.7.5) or third successive foul.

The deliberate foul part refers to direct interference with a ball.

So if you take the 14.1 rules as overriding the general rules, the opponent must accept the cueball in position if he calls the foul. This jives with what happened after Balsis played his foul/safety: Crane played the cueball from where it ended up on the head cushion. But why didn't Balsis just hit it there directly rather than going two rails to accomplish the same thing?

Jim

This is what I thought. I'm going to email a ref who worked a lot of straight matches and see what he says.

Dennis

 

[sjm]

I saw Reyes do that on tape against Dallas West. 15 point foul and Reyes had to break a new rack... He won anyway. Dennis

Yeah, remember it well, I was sweatig that one. Did you notice how composed Reyes remained? He didn't look disconsolate and he didn't complain at all. He just kep concentrating on the business at hand as if nothing had happened. I remember being very impressed by that.

 

[Fred Agnir]

This is what I thought. I'm going to email a ref who worked a lot of straight matches and see what he says.

Dennis

It is now clear to me that there is a misunderstanding of what shot you actually played. Several of us are in fact referees. Detail the shot in question on the WEI table. We'll tell you if it's legal.

Fred

 

[dmgwalsh]

It is now clear to me that there is a misunderstanding of what shot you actually played. Several of us are in fact referees. Detail the shot in question on the WEI table. We'll tell you if it's legal.

Fred

I wanted to just hit it from the kitchen to the top rail without crossing the line.
A-C
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%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pp8J8%Qo1K0%Sr4G0
)END

When he said I couldn't, I lagged downtable and up near the C. I was wondering if it would have been legal to do my originally planned shot.

Dennis

 

[Bob Jewett]

I wanted to just hit it from the kitchen to the top rail without crossing the line.
...

If that were legal, it would be a much better play to place the cue ball in a corner-hooked position in one of the head pockets and just tap it with tip. Or even put the cue ball frozen to the head rail and tap it 1mm along the rail.

Those shots are not legal, as pointed out before.

 

[mjantti]

Yep, putting the cueball straight here from a BIH is not allowed:

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%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pr6C3
)END

Is this allowed ? : (IMHO should be)

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pg9F0%Wf3Z4%Xg6F8%Yn3D4%Zf3[2
%[r6O1%\n8C4%eA1a6
)END

 

[Jal]

If that were legal, it would be a much better play to place the cue ball in a corner-hooked position in one of the head pockets and just tap it with tip. Or even put the cue ball frozen to the head rail and tap it 1mm along the rail.

Those shots are not legal, as pointed out before.

No doubt this is how it's treated by referees such as yourself, but a strict reading of the rules, at least those posted at the BCA site, indicates that when a referee is present the shot is a foul, and then by rule 6.11 dealing with "Penalties for Fouls" in the 14.1 game section, the incoming player must accept the cueball in position because this type of foul is not one of those listed as triggering the cueball in hand situation. This contradicts the general rule 3.10 which states that the incoming player has cueball in hand. But it's my understanding that specific game rules have priority over the general rules when a conflict arises between them. For instance, although general rule 3.10 also calls for cueball in hand when there is a failure to contact a legal object ball in this situation, the incoming player must nonetheless accept it in position if the shooter successfully drives the cueball over the headstring.

I suppose it's an error of omission not including these types of shots under rule 6.11, and bit of nitpicking to point it out, but I think the rules could be a little clearer on this so that we nitpickers don't draw any wrong conclusions.

The original poster dmgwalsh wanted to know what the consequences of not driving the cueball over the headstring were. I guess the answer then is that when a referee is present, he or she is called for a foul and the opponent gets the cueball in hand in the kitchen. Without a referee, the opponent has the option to call the foul or make the offending player reshoot with no foul or penalty assessed.

But, I could be wrong.

Jim