Stretch shadows

afftonbilliards

afftonbilliards

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I recently recovered a bunch of tables. Two of them have stretch marks by the side pockets and the roll of the balls are not true. It almost looks like the gag off balance balls. Would re-stretching the cloth allow the weave to go back in place (Championship Tour Edition)?

Big Al
 
You should start over and do it right.
On every table.
But first, understand what you did wrong.
 
There is a guy installing new cloth at the Rac. I see plenty of shadows, mostly from the side pocket area and some from the rest of the long rail. The mechanic said he's been doing tables for 30 years and the stretch shadows will disappear after a little while.
 
You might get used to looking at them but I do not think they will disappear. I have a couple stretch shadows in my GC. They are near the side pockets, they run about 3-5 diamonds, but you can only see them looking 1 direction. It was the first table I recovered, I could not find anyone local that did nice work that I would trust to do decent job, so I had to do it myself. Believe you me, I was not trying to save money, I had the rails modified for new Artemis cushions, new Simonis, new Centennials, and a new Delta 13 Elite to use on my new cloth.:angry: Next time, probably this winter, I will pay someone to drive up from Chicago area to replace my 860 with 860HR.
 
POOLGODBEWITHME said:
http://www.seyberts.com/products/Simonis_Rail_Bed_Cloth_Installation_Training_DVD-102651-132.html

Worth its weight in gold. Follow the videos word for word and you will have no shadows.
Click to expand...

I did exactly that. I watched the video probably half a dozen times and even took notes. The problem I had was the measurement for the side pocket reliefs. They give you an actual measurement to use which I did, exactly. (I do metal fabricating, it is a lot of work when you make a measurement mistake and you must re-fabricate something.) The error was that apparently you must use the antique table figure which I did not use, I assumed a Gold Crown was not considered an antique. I do not recall if they told you that there were a couple of different side pocket relief measurements in the video or if I found this out after the fact from Glen. Most side pockets will probably be different from one manufacturer to the next, even if the radius is the same you will need to account for shelf depth also. This is probably where experience makes a huge difference, someone who has done many tables will know how much relief you need in the side pocket area, someone doing it for the first time or even occasionally will need some kind of an accurate figure for their particular table. Unfortunately this was the one piece of information that I needed and never received from anyone.
 
Thanks to all that posted. The problems I had were with two tables of the same brand. The slate on the side pockets have very crisp edges. I think the cloth did not slide smoothly on the stretch at the cut out causing the shadows and interference with the balls path. I managed to get the funny rolls out but a faint shadow remains. I do not do my own tables to save money - we all know there are lot of details that should be taken care of but many mechanics will not take the time to attend to. This time around almost killed me. I'm getting too old for this stuff. :(

Big Al
 
I use this method on all gold crown's and don't make the adjustments needed for antiques and under sized slates. I'm guessing your problem was not enough pull from end to end.

fastone371 said:
I did exactly that. I watched the video probably half a dozen times and even took notes. The problem I had was the measurement for the side pocket reliefs. They give you an actual measurement to use which I did, exactly. (I do metal fabricating, it is a lot of work when you make a measurement mistake and you must re-fabricate something.) The error was that apparently you must use the antique table figure which I did not use, I assumed a Gold Crown was not considered an antique. I do not recall if they told you that there were a couple of different side pocket relief measurements in the video or if I found this out after the fact from Glen. Most side pockets will probably be different from one manufacturer to the next, even if the radius is the same you will need to account for shelf depth also. This is probably where experience makes a huge difference, someone who has done many tables will know how much relief you need in the side pocket area, someone doing it for the first time or even occasionally will need some kind of an accurate figure for their particular table. Unfortunately this was the one piece of information that I needed and never received from anyone.
Click to expand...
 
I've done some further research (the fine references in Mr. Bond's Chicago
Billiard Museum). The manual for the Gold Crown mentions the slate edges should be sanded down to take off sharp corners. Although the tables I'm referring to are of a different and newer manufacturer, it appears this burnishing was never done. If I ever do this again, that is the first thing I will check. Again, thanks for every ones thoughts and especially Mr. Bond's encouragement to find out what caused the problem. :thumbup:

Big Al
 
Donny Wessels said:
I use this method on all gold crown's and don't make the adjustments needed for antiques and under sized slates. I'm guessing your problem was not enough pull from end to end.
Click to expand...

I followed the Siminos DVD exactly. I used a Sharpie and a ruler to to accurately mark the correct amount of stretch given on the DVD instructions. When I spoke to Glen (RKC) about my problem he told me that the figure given on the DVD was not correct for my table.

This was Glens reply when I asked him about my stretch shadows http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4064899&postcount=17
 
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Hi All,

I made the bed cloth DVD, (yes that's me in the DVD). The issue with seeing stretch shadows can be alleviated by three procedures.

First, make sure you establish YOUR index with the size and cloth model you are using. for example, gray 760 and tour blue 860 HR on a nine ft pool table will vary by more than half an inch on the side to side index. The instructions for establishing the proper index are demonstrated at the beginning of the DVD. Your personal level of strength will determine the index for the the specific cloth and size table you are working with.

Second, After your attach the stretch side of the cloth on either side of the side pockets you'll have a distinct wrinkle of cloth across the middle of the table. You'll now attach the corner or end of the stretch side... MAKE SURE YOU PULL THE CLOTH FROM THE END (away from the side pocket) FIRST, THEN ACROSS AND DOWN. You'll notice the wrinkle in front of the side pocket will flatten down. You'll also notice that the index marks in the unattached area between the side pocket and the corner pocket will have been pulled closer to the edge of the slate. I like to refer to this as a "gentle C". When done properly you should have about 1/3 less distance to pull the index marks to the edge of the slate. Repeat the same process on the other side of the "stretch side" of the slate and complete the attachment of the long stretch side between the attached corners and the attached side pockets.

Third, When you close the side pockets, be sure to pull the center tabs straight across and the tabs of cloth on either side of the center, from the short end of the table towards the side pocket. In other words, the tab next to the center would be pulled at about a 45% angle and the last tab would be pulled at about a 90% angle towards the side pocket. Pulling straight back, holding the tab above the slate and the down and attach will make this process easier. 3M 77 spray glue will make closing the pocket tabs much easier as well.

One more note, If you are working on an Antique pool table or any table that has very shallow side or corner pocket depths or very gradual radius, the slacking measurement for the side pockets can be reduced. For example on an antique table done recently I used 1/2 inch index on the anchor side and 3/8 inch on the stretch side of the side pockets for slacking.

In my experience, most excessive stretch shadows can be traced back to to much side to side stretch relative to the amount of end to end stretch.
You may have noticed in the DVD that the end to end stretch is a 100% pull, whereas all the other stretching done on the cloth is a maximum stretch the releasing 1/2 to 3/4 inch from the maximum. If you remember "the cloth has to be installed in a rectangular fashion" That is a direct quote from RKC. I fully agree, and with Simonis it's critical to getting the best play and wear.

Hope this helps.
Jay
 
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A-1 billiards said:
Hi All,

I made the bed cloth DVD, (yes that's me in the DVD). The issue with seeing stretch shadows can be alleviated by three procedures.
Hope this helps.
Jay
Click to expand...

I always thought that was Glen in the Simonis video. :confused: I guess that shows you what I know. On my side pocket reliefs I used the figure that was supplied in the Simonis video, I think the table they used for the video was a Valley maybe? I know it was a 1 piece 7' slate. I would need to watch the video again to get those figures. I laid the felt on the table, then glued 1/2 of 1 long rail, measured and marked my side pocket relief then finished gluing the the rest of the long rail. Then I marked the cloth along the slate on the other long rail and if I remember correctly subtract 1 1/2 for stretch? and marked that on the cloth. (like I said earlier, I dont have these figures memorized, I only have done this once but I actually took notes watching the DVD so that I would hopefully not screw it up) I then glued the second long rail with a 1/4" less side pocket relief? while stretching cloth to the supplied stretch index figure supplied. After both long rails were glued I had the wrinkles at the side pockets that would flatten out after stretching the short rails and gluing down. I had only slight wrinkles when I went to attach cloth at side pockets but I was not able to get the cloth real tight in that area, thats why I think I have shadows. Hopefully I can get a mechanic from Chicago area to recover table over the winter. I want to go to 860HR instead of regular 860 because of all the burn marks. I do not jump on table either, I am really surprised by the burn marks, it may have something to do with the dark green color vs blue also.
 
fastone371 said:
I always thought that was Glen in the Simonis video. :confused: I guess that shows you what I know. On my side pocket reliefs I used the figure that was supplied in the Simonis video, I think the table they used for the video was a Valley maybe? I know it was a 1 piece 7' slate. I would need to watch the video again to get those figures. I laid the felt on the table, then glued 1/2 of 1 long rail, measured and marked my side pocket relief then finished gluing the the rest of the long rail. Then I marked the cloth along the slate on the other long rail and if I remember correctly subtract 1 1/2 for stretch? and marked that on the cloth. (like I said earlier, I dont have these figures memorized, I only have done this once but I actually took notes watching the DVD so that I would hopefully not screw it up) I then glued the second long rail with a 1/4" less side pocket relief? while stretching cloth to the supplied stretch index figure supplied. After both long rails were glued I had the wrinkles at the side pockets that would flatten out after stretching the short rails and gluing down. I had only slight wrinkles when I went to attach cloth at side pockets but I was not able to get the cloth real tight in that area, thats why I think I have shadows. Hopefully I can get a mechanic from Chicago area to recover table over the winter. I want to go to 860HR instead of regular 860 because of all the burn marks. I do not jump on table either, I am really surprised by the burn marks, it may have something to do with the dark green color vs blue also.
Click to expand...

My earlier post was for the nine ft Gold Crown staple down, shown in the first half of the DVD. On glue down 7 and 8 ft bar tables the procedure is different. the side pockets are "slacked" by pushing the cloth into the side pocket radius AFTER the long side corners are stretched across. The need to slack the cloth to close the pockets on an unbacked slate with shallow radius depth is much less critical than on a backed slate with deep radius in the side and corner pockets.

Just like the rail covering DVD ( that's Glen doing the work) the procedure for bar table rails and the feather stripped rail are completely different.


Jay
 
A-1 billiards said:
My earlier post was for the nine ft Gold Crown staple down, shown in the first half of the DVD. On glue down 7 and 8 ft bar tables the procedure is different. the side pockets are "slacked" by pushing the cloth into the side pocket radius AFTER the long side corners are stretched across. The need to slack the cloth to close the pockets on an unbacked slate with shallow radius depth is much less critical than on a backed slate with deep radius in the side and corner pockets.

Just like the rail covering DVD ( that's Glen doing the work) the procedure for bar table rails and the feather stripped rail are completely different.


Jay
Click to expand...

The Simonis DVD that I bought only shows the glue down method on a Bar Box. I must have gotten "short changed" on my DVD? I bought the DVD from Seyberts and it says Simonis on the DVD & box. My table is a 9' Gold Crown II, the one pictured in my avatar with the Turkish Prison motif decor.
 
fastone371 said:
The Simonis DVD that I bought only shows the glue down method on a Bar Box. I must have gotten "short changed" on my DVD? I bought the DVD from Seyberts and it says Simonis on the DVD & box. My table is a 9' Gold Crown II, the one pictured in my avatar with the Turkish Prison motif decor.
Click to expand...



I bought mine from Seyberts and it has both methods. I bought the rail and bed package that covers bar boxes and 3 piece tables. Did you buy just the bed cloth dvd?
 
POOLGODBEWITHME said:
I bought mine from Seyberts and it has both methods. I bought the rail and bed package that covers bar boxes and 3 piece tables. Did you buy just the bed cloth dvd?
Click to expand...

Yes. Just the bed cloth DVD because I sent my rails to have the sub-rails modified for current Artemis cushions and they covered the rails too so I just had the bed to do.
 
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