Strickland, love him or hate him...

[Hail Mary Shot]

I also favor taking off the diamonds as well. Don't let those with knowledge of diamond systems have an unfair advantage over those who don't. On top of that we don't have any way to verify that all manufacturers place the diamonds in the same place. So eliminate them from table decoration and that will force the players to rely only on their own judgement when kicking balls.

I have no problem with this one being removed as well John. it's kinda funny though, since those diamonds had existed for the longest time that I could remember, yet most people couldn't perfect or take advantage of those drawn and pathed diagrams. in fact, most people (novice) nowadays are better at jumping rather than doing a one rail escape. guess the diamond system is the hard math.

 

[JB Cases]

I have no problem with this one being removed as well John. it's kinda funny though, since those diamonds had existed for the longest time that I could remember, yet most people couldn't perfect or take advantage of those drawn and pathed diagrams. in fact, most people (novice) nowadays are better at jumping rather than doing a one rail escape. guess the diamond system is the hard math.

When you say "most" people I guess you are referring to the ones who haven't actually learned any kicking systems. Most novices I know aren't that far along yet. Jeez the lengths you people will go to to try and "prove" that one group of shots is "harder" than another is astounding.

I will tell you what. Let's take two people off the street and set up five jump shots from easy to hard and five kick shots from easy to hard. You get the best jump cue available and I will use Tom Rossman's books on kicking. I will bet a cool $1000 cash that if we both start from zero that in 30 minutes I will have my novice making all five kick shots in 3 tries or less while yours won't be able to make all five jump shots.

Bet???

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

When you say "most" people I guess you are referring to the ones who haven't actually learned any kicking systems. Most novices I know aren't that far along yet. Jeez the lengths you people will go to to try and "prove" that one group of shots is "harder" than another is astounding.

I will tell you what. Let's take two people off the street and set up five jump shots from easy to hard and five kick shots from easy to hard. You get the best jump cue available and I will use Tom Rossman's books on kicking. I will bet a cool $1000 cash that if we both start from zero that in 30 minutes I will have my novice making all five kick shots in 3 tries or less while yours won't be able to make all five jump shots.

Bet???

how bout this one John, you can go to every pool room available and ask those who jump balls why they jump shots rather than kicking? and ask them which is easier. how about that? :thumbup: I assure you that the numbers don't lie.

another one, is that you set-up some random lay-outs where your novice student thinks of a way to kick out of it, without demonstrating to him how to do an escape. fair enough? :thumbup:

what you are saying is argumentative at it's best John. you said it yourself that you would need a book to learn such thing. the point is, most novices aren't that much interested in reading and learning kicking lay-outs but rather would automatically look for an easy way out. did I just said easy? what do I mean by that? oh yeah, one path/direction to go rather than going thru a lot of direction. as one commercial would point out, why walk when you can fly !

 

[JB Cases]

how bout this one John, you can go to every pool room available and ask those who jump balls why they jump shots rather than kicking? and ask them which is easier. how about that? :thumbup: I assure you that the numbers don't lie.

another one, is that you set-up some random lay-outs where your novice student thinks of a way to kick out of it, without demonstrating to him how to do an escape. fair enough? :thumbup:

what you are saying is argumentative at it's best John. you said it yourself that you would need a book to learn such thing. the point is, most novices aren't that much interested in reading kicking lay-outs but rather would automatically look for an easy way out. did I just said easy? what do I mean by that? oh yeah, one path/direction to go rather than going thru a lot of direction. as one commercial would point out, why walk when you can fly !

You can play the psychology game and ascribe motivation to "novices" if you want to but it's a red herring. A novice will remain a novice if he/she doesn't avail themselves of the knowledge they need to advance.

I did say I would need a book to instruct the novices. Only because I haven't learned the diamond system well enough to teach it. Do you think that a complete novice will know how to jump precisely simply by having a jump cue in their hand?

Which direction do you consider is the one which has the cue aiming at the bed of the table? Having to learn and know which angle to hit the cueball at with the proper force and spin in order to land just right in the target area is easy to you?

Here goes arrogant John - I have more experience with this subject IN REAL LIFE - than just about anyone on this board. I have seen plenty of decent players who couldn't jump at all with a jump cue UNTIL they were instructed how to do it. And after they "got it" then they were able to continue to refine their new skill through practice and discovery.

You want to make it seem like kicking will die out if the jump cue is allowed. It won't because kicking is an essential part of playing pool. It's one aspect of the game that any serious player must know if they truly want to excel. Just as under modern rules they must also master the jump shot with all sizes of cues.

You don't have the numbers. I do from many many years on the road selling the jump cues. Maybe you never saw my pitch but it included a lot of kick shots, jump-kicks, jump banks, jump safes, etc....

I spent a lot of time learning to teach when I found out that it's not as easy as handing someone a jump cue and they give you a hundred bucks because they can instantly jump everything. If you ever spent an hour with me at one of these shows then you would change your outlook 180 degrees. I had to teach people to stand right, to stroke right, how to judge angles, how to kill the cueball, how to apply spin when jumping, how to practice. Some people needed to have their normal pool stroke corrected before they could even consider jumping so I did that too. Some people came to the booth thinking that jumping over Coke bottles was what it was all about and when they left they understood that it's a shot like any other that needs to be refined.

No different than the person who learns a kicking system and thinks that just contacting the ball is enough. That person will never go beyond into the realm of kicking that Stu (and me) finds so wonderful.

It's funny how the jump-cue opponents always use "novices" and their supposed habits to justify banning the cue. No one mentions the great shots that the pros make. No one applauds someone like Shawn Putnam who has taken precision jump shots to a new level. You only focus on the neophytes. You all know how hard it is to play high level pool under pressure. Imagine how tough it is for the pros when they are faced with a jump shot, be it "easy" or difficult. They know that even with all their practice it's still low percentage but it's a chance. The jump shot gives them this chance and the jump cue, like the leather tip, allows them to perform the shot as well as they are able to.

Focus on what the upper echelon are doing with the tool and not the bottom of the skill level range and you might then appreciate the real skill that goes into mastering this shot and the tool that enhances it.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

You can play the psychology game and ascribe motivation to "novices" if you want to but it's a red herring. A novice will remain a novice if he/she doesn't avail themselves of the knowledge they need to advance.

I did say I would need a book to instruct the novices. Only because I haven't learned the diamond system well enough to teach it. Do you think that a complete novice will know how to jump precisely simply by having a jump cue in their hand?

Which direction do you consider is the one which has the cue aiming at the bed of the table? Having to learn and know which angle to hit the cueball at with the proper force and spin in order to land just right in the target area is easy to you?

Here goes arrogant John - I have more experience with this subject IN REAL LIFE - than just about anyone on this board. I have seen plenty of decent players who couldn't jump at all with a jump cue UNTIL they were instructed how to do it. And after they "got it" then they were able to continue to refine their new skill through practice and discovery.

You want to make it seem like kicking will die out if the jump cue is allowed. It won't because kicking is an essential part of playing pool. It's one aspect of the game that any serious player must know if they truly want to excel. Just as under modern rules they must also master the jump shot with all sizes of cues.

You don't have the numbers. I do from many many years on the road selling the jump cues. Maybe you never saw my pitch but it included a lot of kick shots, jump-kicks, jump banks, jump safes, etc....

I spent a lot of time learning to teach when I found out that it's not as easy as handing someone a jump cue and they give you a hundred bucks because they can instantly jump everything. If you ever spent an hour with me at one of these shows then you would change your outlook 180 degrees. I had to teach people to stand right, to stroke right, how to judge angles, how to kill the cueball, how to apply spin when jumping, how to practice. Some people needed to have their normal pool stroke corrected before they could even consider jumping so I did that too. Some people came to the booth thinking that jumping over Coke bottles was what it was all about and when they left they understood that it's a shot like any other that needs to be refined.

No different than the person who learns a kicking system and thinks that just contacting the ball is enough. That person will never go beyond into the realm of kicking that Stu (and me) finds so wonderful.

It's funny how the jump-cue opponents always use "novices" and their supposed habits to justify banning the cue. No one mentions the great shots that the pros make. No one applauds someone like Shawn Putnam who has taken precision jump shots to a new level. You only focus on the neophytes. You all know how hard it is to play high level pool under pressure. Imagine how tough it is for the pros when they are faced with a jump shot, be it "easy" or difficult. They know that even with all their practice it's still low percentage but it's a chance. The jump shot gives them this chance and the jump cue, like the leather tip, allows them to perform the shot as well as they are able to.

Focus on what the upper echelon are doing with the tool and not the bottom of the skill level range and you might then appreciate the real skill that goes into mastering this shot and the tool that enhances it.

Speaking of the Pros, then tell me this. why is it that pros opt to jump over to pocket a ball rather than kick to pocket the ball, if you say that jumping has a low percentage or chance compared to kicking? if you could show me a young pro player that opted to pocket a ball using a 2-3 rail kick rather than using a jumpshot in a scenario where the player has a straight in jumpshot to pocket the ball, then consider me as one of your padawan learner, john almighty. :thumbup:

 

[Rick S.]

Speaking of the Pros, then tell me this. why is it that pros opt to jump over to pocket a ball rather than kick to pocket the ball, if you say that jumping has a low percentage or chance compared to kicking? if you could show me a young pro player that opted to pocket a ball using a 2-3 rail kick rather than using a jumpshot in a scenario where the player has a straight in jumpshot to pocket the ball, then consider me as one of your padawan learner, john almighty. :thumbup:

It's like talking to a wall.....then again, what would you expect from someone in the 'business'.

If he really thinks it's that hard to jump a ball...he needs to go take lesssons from Robin D. She'll have Ray Charles jumping, AND making balls in under 3 minutes...guaranteed.

You know if he'll go as far as making up a Earl jumpstick story, there isn't any telling what's coming next.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

It's like talking to a wall.....then again, what would you expect from someone in the 'business'.

If he really thinks it's that hard to jump a ball...he needs to go take lesssons from Robin D. She'll have Ray Charles jumping, AND making balls in under 3 minutes...guaranteed.

You know if he'll go as far as making up a Earl jumpstick story, there isn't any telling what's coming next.

RAY CHARLES? ROFLMAO !!! :thumbup:

 

[blueridge]

To me,you don't have to be a good player to execute a good jump shot.A mediocre player can execute a good,or even great,jump shot.

I don't many mediocre players who can consistently execute good jump shots let alone jump at all.

If youv'e seen the tape of Efren and Earl playing nine ball,Efren plays safe and,inadvertently makes a ball and hooks himself.Efren looks at the routes he might go for a couple minutes,then KICKS two rails cross table,makes the object ball and brings down the house.Even Earl applauded.To me it makes the game more mentally challenging then just jacking up and jumping.

I've seen it many times. It was the greatest pool shot ever. Still, this has nothing whatsoever to do with jump shots. A kick shot was the only option Efren had. There was no jump shot available. Furthermore, even Efren has started to shoot the jump shot in recent years, and he uses one of those awful jump cues that so many people hate. He did it twice in 1 match, I think it was against Earl in the 2005 US open. All this criticism against jump shots and jump cues is just plain stupid. You never hear golfers get criticized for using a sand wedge for getting out of a sand trap.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

It's like talking to a wall.....then again, what would you expect from someone in the 'business'.

If he really thinks it's that hard to jump a ball...he needs to go take lesssons from Robin D. She'll have Ray Charles jumping, AND making balls in under 3 minutes...guaranteed.

You know if he'll go as far as making up a Earl jumpstick story, there isn't any telling what's coming next.

I did mention young, right? so Earl wouldn't qualify. and besides, Earl finally realized how the jump cue made life easier for his opponent's getting out of tight situations. that alone is a testament in itself on why the jump cue was made for. why would you make a product that will make you lose games or make your life more difficult, right? doesn't seem logical at all.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

I don't many mediocre players who can consistently execute good jump shots let alone jump at all.



I've seen it many times. It was the greatest pool shot ever. Still, this has nothing whatsoever to do with jump shots. A kick shot was the only option Efren had. There was no jump shot available. Furthermore, even Efren has started to shoot the jump shot in recent years, and he uses one of those awful jump cues that so many people hate. He did it twice in 1 match, I think it was against Earl in the 2005 US open. All this criticism against jump shots and jump cues is just plain stupid. You never hear golfers get criticized for using a sand wedge for getting out of a sand trap.

the question is why you use the sand wedge rather than the putter,wood, other wedges and irons? you can use those putters, wood, other wedges and irons to get around the sandtrap but golfers opt not to use them. the obvious reason is not to make your life difficult by getting out easily using the sand wedge. I hope you wont say that a golfer must possess some good sand jumping skills since using a sand wedge can be really challenging than using a putter roll or wood chop in a sandtrap.

 

[JimGinPhx]

The point I was making about kicking vs jumping:you don't need a special cue to kick.You need knowledge of angles,drag,the rails,spin,weather conditions that could affect the rails etc.It takes a lot of practice ,knowledge and confidence to execute the kick.There are a lot of jump cues that make it pretty easy to be competent at jumping.Along with, it must drive room owners crazy to hear or see a person learning or practicng jumping on their tables.

 

[GordonRamsay]

its funny how I see lots of people jumping over balls when there is an easy 2 cushion bank for the carom....from someone who is new to the sport... it's not that hard to figure out the correct angle...


maybe there needs to be a rule against it... like in snooker...heck if they can figure out and navigate a 12ft table to make a carom, there should be no excuse why you shouldn't on a 9ft or smaller.

i think lots of players (amateurs) like to do it because it just looks cool....which is the exact wrong way to go about applying a skill.



oh well... I never jump... except for a semi-masse every once in a while.

 

[Rick S.]

delusinal

I stated I saw it with my own eyes more than once. The most prominent was at the Windy City Open where I had front row seat to watch Earl's match.

I offered the video as proof of my personal observations. I welcome anyone else to analyze the video and explain the "seeming" difference in cue lengths.

The video only confirmed what I already knew.

As to why I bring this up? Because it's wrong for someone to rail against jump cues when he himself uses a cue that is "non-standard" for jumping balls. I am not going to ask Earl because he will deny it. This is the same guy that won five World Championships using a Cuetec and then said that Cuetec ruined his game. This is the guy who said horrible things about a sponsor that stuck by his side for 17 years until Earl's behavior became too much of a public relations nightmare.

And it's wrong for people to use Earl as an example of someone who jumps with "only" his playing cue when he in fact does not.

And for the record I find it really hard to believe that an equipment freak like Earl wouldn't use a shorter cue to jump with. A guy who puts extensions on his fingers is going to completely deny reality and allow his opponents a complete advantage over him when the solution to him retaining a clear advantage is only a few inches of cue length????

But that's neither here nor there. You can explain it away with camera angles but I think you know that what I am saying is correct. However there are plenty of people on this board who would love to see me proven wrong so go ahead and ask them to analyze the video. Get TAR in on it since they do video. I don't care. I will bet $100 that I am right and if anyone can prove that I am wrong about the cue that Earl used in the video link I provided then I will donate $100 to the AZ pro player fund.

Look at the video again....

At 8:31 Earl adjusts his stick...Puts it in the notch cut out of the arm in the chair. His other stick is resting against the back wall...a long way away from them being 'together' or side by side. Which explains the difference in length.

Same thing when he returns to the chair later on.....

Surely... out of the hundreds of hours of Earl video's you can find just one that shows him with a 'short stick'. Or a photo would work too.....or even ONE person besides yourself that knows about Earl's 'secret' stick.

Surely there has to be ONE person....? (OTHER than yourself)

Where you dream this shit up is beyond me...

 

[JB Cases]

Speaking of the Pros, then tell me this. why is it that pros opt to jump over to pocket a ball rather than kick to pocket the ball, if you say that jumping has a low percentage or chance compared to kicking? if you could show me a young pro player that opted to pocket a ball using a 2-3 rail kick rather than using a jumpshot in a scenario where the player has a straight in jumpshot to pocket the ball, then consider me as one of your padawan learner, john almighty. :thumbup:

I didn't say that jumping has a low percentage compared to kicking. It's two distinctly different skill sets. The player at the table has to decide which of the two methods to get to the object ball he would prefer to use. Sometimes the kick shot is the better shot and sometimes it's the jump shot.

To be a good player under today's rules you need to have both shots in your arsenal.

I said that even with practice the jump shot is still low percentage. And of course this depends on the placement of the balls. Of course a ball hanging in the hole is high percentage to make it for an accomplished jumper as it is for an accomplished kicker as well. But even that brings up a point. If you have a ball sitting in the pocket and you can one rail kick it or jump it then your choice depends on position you need after you make it. If you need to stop the cue ball near the same pocket then you are wise to jump it with enough spin to perform a stop shot. If you need the cueball to travel down table then perhaps kicking it to thin the object ball is the better shot. Either way you two options.

 

[punter]

As to why I bring this up? Because it's wrong for someone to rail against jump cues when he himself uses a cue that is "non-standard" for jumping balls. ........

And for the record I find it really hard to believe that an equipment freak like Earl wouldn't use a shorter cue to jump with. A guy who puts extensions on his fingers is going to completely deny reality and allow his opponents a complete advantage over him when the solution to him retaining a clear advantage is only a few inches of cue length????

I don't agree that if one complains about jump cues 'ruining the game', while at the same time using one himself, that it means he is hypocritical.

It more likely means that he understands, as you said, that not using one would put him at a disadvantage. He can still hold the opinion that jump cues are a sort of way to 'cheat' the skill of safety play and kicking skills. I'm guessing Earl probably feels that jumping takes some of the difficulty out of the game, and takes away some of the advantage he may have had if jump cues were not allowed.

 

[JB Cases]

Look at the video again....

At 8:31 Earl adjusts his stick...Puts it in the notch cut out of the arm in the chair. His other stick is resting against the back wall...a long way away from them being 'together' or side by side. Which explains the difference in length.

Same thing when he returns to the chair later on.....

Surely... out of the hundreds of hours of Earl video's you can find just one that shows him with a 'short stick'. Or a photo would work too.....or even ONE person besides yourself that knows about Earl's 'secret' stick.

Surely there has to be ONE person....? (OTHER than yourself)

Where you dream this shit up is beyond me...

I did look at the video again. Who has more to lose by publicly accusing Earl Strickland of being a hypocrite on the jump cue issue? Earl or me? Earl could care less what people think as evidenced by his actions.

I am here every day though. My customers are here and my competitors are here. So I would be putting my reputation in serious jeopardy by making unfounded accusations like this.

But anyway, here are the frame by frame clips of what I consider to be the most telling part of the video along with my thoughts on what I see. Feel free to disagree with my analysis and let the audience decide who is right.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

At 8:27 Earl begins to reposition his cues. His left hand is holding the one not leaning against the chair.

At 8:28 he has his arms around both cues.

At 8:29 with his arms still around both cues he brings them into the chair.

At 8:29 he removes his arms from around the cues and they appear to be leaning against the chair side by side at the same angle. One cue appears to be shorter than the other one.

At 8:30 Earl's arms are folded in his lap and the cues are in the same position with one clue clearly shorter than the other.

At 8:50 The camera cuts to Earl after Bustamante's break. The closeup shows two cues that appear to be standing side by side at the same angle with one clearly shorter than the other. Here I assume that Earl has not moved the cues that he repositioned at 8:30 since they appear to be in the same place relative to his body. Certainly it's a stretch to say that one of these cues is on the back wall or several feet away.

And lastly, At 34:36 here is another shot of Earl in the chair with two cues in close proximity standing at nearly the same angle where one appears to be about five inches shorter than the other one.

So I welcome correction and will publicly apologize and edit my comments regarding my contention that Earl used a shorter cue to jump with if you can provide an analysis of this video evidence that the AZ community can agree refutes mine. I still stand by what I personally witnessed but that will always be suspect because of the fact that I sell jump cues.

 

[JB Cases]

I don't agree that if one complains about jump cues 'ruining the game', while at the same time using one himself, that it means he is hypocritical.

It more likely means that he understands, as you said, that not using one would put him at a disadvantage. He can still hold the opinion that jump cues are a sort of way to 'cheat' the skill of safety play and kicking skills. I'm guessing Earl probably feels that jumping takes some of the difficulty out of the game, and takes away some of the advantage he may have had if jump cues were not allowed.

I can agree with this. But it does take the air out of using Earl as the poster-boy for banning jump cues using the reasoning that he "does it with a full cue" when he, in fact, does not.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

I can agree with this. But it does take the air out of using Earl as the poster-boy for banning jump cues using the reasoning that he "does it with a full cue" when he, in fact, does not.

Are they any other accomplished pro's out there that are firmly against the jump cue being used in the game? I would guess the answer is yes, although naturally, he/she may be hesitant to go on the record for fear of sponsorship issues.

Is there any accomplished pro out there that uses a jump cue less than Earl? I would guess the answer is no.

Just wonderin'.

 

[JoeyA]

I did look at the video again. Who has more to lose by publicly accusing Earl Strickland of being a hypocrite on the jump cue issue? Earl or me? Earl could care less what people think as evidenced by his actions.

I am here every day though. My customers are here and my competitors are here. So I would be putting my reputation in serious jeopardy by making unfounded accusations like this.

But anyway, here are the frame by frame clips of what I consider to be the most telling part of the video along with my thoughts on what I see. Feel free to disagree with my analysis and let the audience decide who is right.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

At 8:27 Earl begins to reposition his cues. His left hand is holding the one not leaning against the chair.

At 8:28 he has his arms around both cues.

At 8:29 with his arms still around both cues he brings them into the chair.

At 8:29 he removes his arms from around the cues and they appear to be leaning against the chair side by side at the same angle. One cue appears to be shorter than the other one.

At 8:30 Earl's arms are folded in his lap and the cues are in the same position with one clue clearly shorter than the other.

At 8:50 The camera cuts to Earl after Bustamante's break. The closeup shows two cues that appear to be standing side by side at the same angle with one clearly shorter than the other. Here I assume that Earl has not moved the cues that he repositioned at 8:30 since they appear to be in the same place relative to his body. Certainly it's a stretch to say that one of these cues is on the back wall or several feet away.

And lastly, At 34:36 here is another shot of Earl in the chair with two cues in close proximity standing at nearly the same angle where one appears to be about five inches shorter than the other one.

So I welcome correction and will publicly apologize and edit my comments regarding my contention that Earl used a shorter cue to jump with if you can provide an analysis of this video evidence that the AZ community can agree refutes mine. I still stand by what I personally witnessed but that will always be suspect because of the fact that I sell jump cues.

It is obvious to me that there is a hole in the ground where the cue on the right is located. It may be a drain hole or just some missing foundation but by golly there's a hole in the ground and that is why the cue looks like it is shorter.JoeyA

 

[punter]

It is obvious to me that there is a hole in the ground where the cue on the right is located. It may be a drain hole or just some missing foundation but by golly there's a hole in the ground and that is why the cue looks like it is shorter.JoeyA

I was there, and noticed the hole too. :grin: