may I ask this, are jump cues allowed in snooker matches and 3Cs? 
Strickland, love him or hate him...
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Strickland,love him or hate him
I agree there is skill in the jump shot.However,pool is a game of angles,spin,masse,deflection etc.The skill and imagination required to get out of jams staying on the surface of the table,at a high level,to me is more impressive then a jump shot.To me,you don't have to be a good player to execute a good jump shot.A mediocre player can execute a good,or even great,jump shot.It's no different in golf.You don't have to be a great player to be a great putter.As equipment has evolved,games have evolved.If youv'e seen the tape of Efren and Earl playing nine ball,Efren plays safe and,inadvertently makes a ball and hooks himself.Efren looks at the routes he might go for a couple minutes,then KICKS two rails cross table,makes the object ball and brings down the house.Even Earl applauded.To me it makes the game more mentally challenging then just jacking up and jumping.
I agree there is skill in the jump shot.However,pool is a game of angles,spin,masse,deflection etc.The skill and imagination required to get out of jams staying on the surface of the table,at a high level,to me is more impressive then a jump shot.To me,you don't have to be a good player to execute a good jump shot.A mediocre player can execute a good,or even great,jump shot.It's no different in golf.You don't have to be a great player to be a great putter.As equipment has evolved,games have evolved.If youv'e seen the tape of Efren and Earl playing nine ball,Efren plays safe and,inadvertently makes a ball and hooks himself.Efren looks at the routes he might go for a couple minutes,then KICKS two rails cross table,makes the object ball and brings down the house.Even Earl applauded.To me it makes the game more mentally challenging then just jacking up and jumping.
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JimGinPhx said:
I agree that great shots elicit audience approval. The shot you refer to however is one in which Efren hooked himself and even if had a jump cue there was no way to jump it. Efren just wanted to hit the ball and he ended up making it.
A mediocre player can also execute a great kick shot. Tell me seriously you have never seen a B player flail at a kick shot and get lucky?
On top of that I have seen Tom Rossman teach B and C players how to make one, two, and three rail kick shots with consistency and accuracy in 5-10 minutes. There are diamond systems that anyone can learn to make those impressive kick shots. Not one of them makes the player who knows them Efren Reyes caliber just because they can make kick shots.
Some of the greatest pool shots in 9 and 10 ball have been jump shots as well. And there are no diamond systems to tell you how to judge jumping your cueball six feet into a six inch window and just how much force to apply and shooting with draw to make the cueball kill when it hits the table.
The jump shot is SO MUCH MORE than just bouncing the cueball. It's every pool shot you can think of PLUS another dimension. I am biased because I am so familiar with it. I am the kind of person that is never satisfied with the way things are. I have to understand everything about a subject when I sell it. This is why I studied the jump shot, it's history, the techniques, the underlying physics of it, why some cues are better than others, when it's applicable, it's impact on the game, and so on.
I can't change the mind of people like you and Stuart. That's fine. But I will campaign for the continued inclusion of a great innovation that extends the game of billiards and adds many more great shots that are yet unplayed.
Back to tradition; Billiards evolved as an indoor form of Croquet. Croquet has long employed the jump shot.
sjm said:
And the same can be said for jump shots. Let's try it and see how it sounds;
I think that the jump shot is the single most interesting shot in nine ball and difficult jumps present problems that, in some cases, only the truly elite players can solve.
In both sentences it is clear that complex problems can only be solved (willfully) by elite players. Isn't that the whole thing right there. No problem solves itself in pool. The player wielding the cue, be it a 59" or a 41" cue is the one who must put it all together and execute the solution.
Hail Mary Shot said:may I ask this, are jump cues allowed in snooker matches and 3Cs?
The jump shot is not allowed in snooker as there is no need for it. There is no requirement to contact a rail in snooker and there is no ball-in-hand penalty other than shooting out of the D after a scratch.
There is also no need for a jump cue in 3-cushion. However a billiard player is probably allowed to use one if they choose to. I think billiard players understand that it's the player and not the cue that makes the shot far more than pool players do.
In billiards they have masse cues which are shorter fatter cues that make it easier to perform masse shots. I don't know if such cues are allowed in a standard 3 cushion match.
Rick S. said:
I wouldn't expect Earl to say anything different. However I don't lie and my personal observations and the video link I posted backs it up. Nothing is PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
Tell Earl to explain why he uses a shorter cue to break and jump with as was posted in the video.
And I don't care if he used the jump cue he has less than five times the fact is that he has one and he uses it. And not surprisingly the other video where he used it in the Mosconi Cup he pocketed the ball and kept running out which just goes to PROVE my point that a super talent like Earl with a jump cue is a deadly combination.
(also, just so you know, jump cues have full length shafts, most of them anyway)
JB Cases said:
Point well taken, but, in practice, few jump shots a) have right or left hand english on the cue ball, or b) have the cueball go to a rail before hitting the object ball, so the path of the cue ball all the way from beginning to end is nearly always linear.
With the kick shot, there are many more variables. English can a) create swerve on the way to the first rail, or b) change the way the cue ball goes off of each rail. Top spin or draw also affects the angle at which the cueball comes off the first rail. In addition, the speed at which the cueball hits the rails affects the angle, as well as the linearity, at which the cueball comes off the rails. Let's add that how the shooter accounts for and selects speed, english, and top/bottom orientation can make the object ball "bigger" or "smaller" for making a good hit. In addition, these choices can affect where the object ball can possibly be sent once hit. I believe that learning how to make the kind of decisions required in the nine-ball kicking game takes a pool lifetime.
For these reasons, while I concede that both the jump and the kick shot require skill, I feel the kick shot, on average, requires much more skill and much more knowledge than the jump shot to execute.
i say they oughtta ban those dang $300 pie shaped x shaped low deflection, play like a pro shafts! LOL! sorry only kidding. I use deflection in my game i dont wanna lose it.
wrong again....no explanation needed.
Look at the video again.....it's a standard length shaft. When he puts it down, it's leaning, and there is a gap between the sticks, which make it look shorter. Believe me....it's not a short shaft.
You can tell when he's stroking the ball.....it's a 'normal' shaft.
I have one of his breaks sticks right here......a Cuetec, just like in the photo.
JB Cases said:
Look at the video again.....it's a standard length shaft. When he puts it down, it's leaning, and there is a gap between the sticks, which make it look shorter. Believe me....it's not a short shaft.
You can tell when he's stroking the ball.....it's a 'normal' shaft.
I have one of his breaks sticks right here......a Cuetec, just like in the photo.
neither
I think Earl is good for pool.
I cannot condone his actions at times but he has to play by the rules just like everyone.
I don't love or hate the guy.In fact I do not like or dislike him.I think his actions are sometimes reprehensible but always entertaining.
I sense that he is showing his genuine personality more then just acting a part.
Big ego? Yes,Big game? Yes.
Absolutely I enjoy watching him,I don't think I would enjoy playing him.
I think Earl is good for pool.
I cannot condone his actions at times but he has to play by the rules just like everyone.
I don't love or hate the guy.In fact I do not like or dislike him.I think his actions are sometimes reprehensible but always entertaining.
I sense that he is showing his genuine personality more then just acting a part.
Big ego? Yes,Big game? Yes.
Absolutely I enjoy watching him,I don't think I would enjoy playing him.
Hail Mary,
You are right. And the compliment to evolution is adaptation. Players will adapt to whatever rules are implemented and exploit them until the rules are changed again.
I wouldn't care if the jump shot were banned tomorrow. I will still keep playing pool and getting my enjoyment out of playing great when it happens. If they banned kick shots and allowed jump shots then I would feel the same way.
The point of all this is that there is very little consistency in pool and certain very little in the way of a tradtion to stand on.
I personally don't care. I brought out a cue that was already on the market, that had been developed by people much smarter than myself. What I did was play a part in popularizing it even more. To that end I studied it and understand it's not a gimmick but is instead a highly efficent tool that fills a need in the game as it's currently played. I made that tool a part of my busness and was very successful. Had the need not existed then the tool wouldn't have been invented.
Change the rules so that the jump cue is not needed and it will go away. To date though no one has successfully proposed rules that make more sense than the current ones and thus the jump shot and the attendant jump cue remain.
I doubt that jump cues are high on the agenda of the rules makers these days. I say however that if they ban the jump cue then they should also ban the jump shot from the game. Because it's a proven fact that some 59" cues are more suited to jumping balls than others. Take away the shot and it solves all equipment issues as well.
I also favor taking off the diamonds as well. Don't let those with knowledge of diamond systems have an unfair advantage over those who don't. On top of that we don't have any way to verify that all manufacturers place the diamonds in the same place. So eliminate them from table decoration and that will force the players to rely only on their own judgement when kicking balls.
You are right. And the compliment to evolution is adaptation. Players will adapt to whatever rules are implemented and exploit them until the rules are changed again.
I wouldn't care if the jump shot were banned tomorrow. I will still keep playing pool and getting my enjoyment out of playing great when it happens. If they banned kick shots and allowed jump shots then I would feel the same way.
The point of all this is that there is very little consistency in pool and certain very little in the way of a tradtion to stand on.
I personally don't care. I brought out a cue that was already on the market, that had been developed by people much smarter than myself. What I did was play a part in popularizing it even more. To that end I studied it and understand it's not a gimmick but is instead a highly efficent tool that fills a need in the game as it's currently played. I made that tool a part of my busness and was very successful. Had the need not existed then the tool wouldn't have been invented.
Change the rules so that the jump cue is not needed and it will go away. To date though no one has successfully proposed rules that make more sense than the current ones and thus the jump shot and the attendant jump cue remain.
I doubt that jump cues are high on the agenda of the rules makers these days. I say however that if they ban the jump cue then they should also ban the jump shot from the game. Because it's a proven fact that some 59" cues are more suited to jumping balls than others. Take away the shot and it solves all equipment issues as well.
I also favor taking off the diamonds as well. Don't let those with knowledge of diamond systems have an unfair advantage over those who don't. On top of that we don't have any way to verify that all manufacturers place the diamonds in the same place. So eliminate them from table decoration and that will force the players to rely only on their own judgement when kicking balls.
Rick S. said:
I provided a breakdown of what I see in the video and of course took it into account that the cues might be leaning at different angles.
Look man, you are going to believe Earl and that's what I would expect a friend to do. I am quite familiar with the subject and know what a shorter cue is.
No one is talking about the length of the shaft, I don't know where you are getting that.
All I said is that he used a shorter cue for jumping. Which is clear to see in the video if you pay attention to the time markers I showed you.
The proof is on record and that's all there is to it. Read this post and pay attention to the markers I pointed out - http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=1481613&postcount=38
When you have two cues side by side shaft to shaft standing at the same angle then it's clear if they are the same size or not. If they are propped at different angles then by definition they absolutely cannot be shaft to shaft as is seen here. It's impossible.
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camera angles do strange things....
Proof my ass...Ask ANY pro if Earl has ever used a stick that's shorter than normal for breaking, or jumping. I'll guarantee you won't find one, anywhere. It's awfully strange you are the one and only guy who has ever made a statement like that.
YOU are the first guy to accuse him of that in what 20 something years? Have you EVER heard, or read anything about it? Has ANYONE else? If so, speak up.
I was with him for a bunch of tournys....I looked, and played out of his case on a few occasions. I have quite the collection of Earl memorabilia, including sticks. And none of them have been 'chopped off', on the top, or on the bottom.
Believe what you want, but don't start false rumors when you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
JB Cases said:
Proof my ass...Ask ANY pro if Earl has ever used a stick that's shorter than normal for breaking, or jumping. I'll guarantee you won't find one, anywhere. It's awfully strange you are the one and only guy who has ever made a statement like that.
YOU are the first guy to accuse him of that in what 20 something years? Have you EVER heard, or read anything about it? Has ANYONE else? If so, speak up.
I was with him for a bunch of tournys....I looked, and played out of his case on a few occasions. I have quite the collection of Earl memorabilia, including sticks. And none of them have been 'chopped off', on the top, or on the bottom.
Believe what you want, but don't start false rumors when you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Jump Cue
I seem to remember Earl using a jump cue in a TV match somewhere......
Might have been the Mosconi Cup games. I remember being surprised after all the fuss he makes about them.
Ray
ps. That's a great match by the way. Earl vs Buste
edited to add: after watching the video, I'm convinced his break/jump cue IS shorter.
I seem to remember Earl using a jump cue in a TV match somewhere......
Might have been the Mosconi Cup games. I remember being surprised after all the fuss he makes about them.
Ray
ps. That's a great match by the way. Earl vs Buste
edited to add: after watching the video, I'm convinced his break/jump cue IS shorter.
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Rick S. said:
I stated I saw it with my own eyes more than once. The most prominent was at the Windy City Open where I had front row seat to watch Earl's match.
I offered the video as proof of my personal observations. I welcome anyone else to analyze the video and explain the "seeming" difference in cue lengths.
The video only confirmed what I already knew.
As to why I bring this up? Because it's wrong for someone to rail against jump cues when he himself uses a cue that is "non-standard" for jumping balls. I am not going to ask Earl because he will deny it. This is the same guy that won five World Championships using a Cuetec and then said that Cuetec ruined his game. This is the guy who said horrible things about a sponsor that stuck by his side for 17 years until Earl's behavior became too much of a public relations nightmare.
And it's wrong for people to use Earl as an example of someone who jumps with "only" his playing cue when he in fact does not.
And for the record I find it really hard to believe that an equipment freak like Earl wouldn't use a shorter cue to jump with. A guy who puts extensions on his fingers is going to completely deny reality and allow his opponents a complete advantage over him when the solution to him retaining a clear advantage is only a few inches of cue length????
But that's neither here nor there. You can explain it away with camera angles but I think you know that what I am saying is correct. However there are plenty of people on this board who would love to see me proven wrong so go ahead and ask them to analyze the video. Get TAR in on it since they do video. I don't care. I will bet $100 that I am right and if anyone can prove that I am wrong about the cue that Earl used in the video link I provided then I will donate $100 to the AZ pro player fund.
Shorter
There is a guy here in Texas that breaks with a 40" jump cue!
A little shorter break cue? Genius.
A longer Jump cue? Good for all but the very close jumps.
I like it! I'm having a three piece jump/break being made right now that is about 52" total.
Ray
There is a guy here in Texas that breaks with a 40" jump cue!
A little shorter break cue? Genius.
A longer Jump cue? Good for all but the very close jumps.
I like it! I'm having a three piece jump/break being made right now that is about 52" total.
Ray