Stroke and Fundamental review request.

rrick33 said:
I initially thought you might have a slightly forward cocked wrist as mentioned by Scott but I'm wondering if it seemed that way because you have a very tight grip on the cue and your wrist is locked in a single position.

The lighting is somewhat poor in the video and it's difficult to see but it stuck me there's no flex in the wrist at all, even within the follow through, which leads me to think you might be "white knuckling" the cue stick a bit.

Given the poor quality of the video, I may be way off base but you might benefit by relaxing the grip and wrist a bit more within your delivery.

"Different strokes for different folks"...Experiment a little bit.
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You are spot on in your assessment.
The tight grip can be seen in the last few shots with side pocket angle.
I'm not an instructor, but I love threads like this because it helps me review my own fundamentals.

The only reason there is no scooping in the cue tip from his practice strokes is because his shots are all soft (Not much pull back as well as follow through). I imagine there will be problems as he expands his practice to power draw shots. That grip will lead to a lot of hopping of the cue ball.

The pinned elbow will also not expose the tightened grip as well, because his follow through is only a two or three inches.

To the OP, here is an instruction video that addresses follow thorough, note the grip hand on follow through.

https://youtu.be/sjLx2jAWP0A

Good luck and keep working at it.
 
Cardigan Kid said:
You are spot on in your assessment.
The tight grip can be seen in the last few shots with side pocket angle.
I'm not an instructor, but I love threads like this because it helps me review my own fundamentals.

The only reason there is no scooping in the cue tip from his practice strokes is because his shots are all soft (Not much pull back as well as follow through). I imagine there will be problems as he expands his practice to power draw shots. That grip will lead to a lot of hopping of the cue ball.

The pinned elbow will also not expose the tightened grip as well, because his follow through is only a two or three inches.

To the OP, here is an instruction video that addresses follow thorough, note the grip hand on follow through.

https://youtu.be/sjLx2jAWP0A

Good luck and keep working at it.
Click to expand...

Kid,

Some good stuff there but also some contradictions in the language used that can be rather misleading.

I do not think the grip thing is as cut & dry as you & some others make it out to be.

That said, the connection to the cue must be one that is conducive to the intended type of cue movement or it can have a bad influence on that intended movement.

There are many shots that the connection to the cue can & should be modified for its 'intensity'.

Some here will say BS. That's fine but go talk to the better players.

Lee Trevino modified his grip on the club the opposite way of what most would do in order to hit a draw. He did that so that he could FULLY release the club without the fear of it turning into a hook.

All Best Wishes to You & Yours,
Rick

PS There are kinds of nuances to nearly every physical endeavor but one never learns them by playing like a robot.:wink:
 
ENGLISH! said:
Kid,

Some good stuff there but also some contradictions in the language used that can be rather misleading.

I do not think the grip thing is as cut & dry as you & some others make it out to be.

That said, the connection to the cue must be one that is conducive to the intended type of cue movement or it can have a bad influence on that intended movement.

There are many shots that the connection to the cue can & should be modified for its 'intensity'.

Some here will say BS. That's fine but go talk to the better players.

Lee Trevino modified his grip on the club the opposite way of what most would do in order to hit a draw. He did that so that he could FULLY release the club without the fear of it turning into a hook.

All Best Wishes to You & Yours,
Rick

PS There are kinds of nuances to nearly every physical endeavor but one never learns them by playing like a robot.:wink:
Click to expand...

Yes, Rick, you have a better way to put it into words than I. Maybe I didn't state it right.
I keep going back to Lee Brett's instruction on the V grip upon follow through...I suppose it brought me into the light that I see it as an indicator of elevated cuing.

One thing I liked about Lee's instruction (he states in that video) is no matter what the shot, from soft to power follow...his follow through is kept the same. The motions are all similar with the horse power required for the shot found in releasing his back fingers to varying degrees upon his pull back.

He stated a famous snooker player who expressed on his grip hand that the index and thumb are the steering wheel and the other three fingers are the engine that drives the car.

That stuck in my mind fairly well. It's a great description.

Your golf analogies always get the point across. Like you said the grip is more fluid and I agree and wanted the OP to be aware that his grip didn't appear very fluid in the videos.
 
All that being said, Rick, what are your thoughts on the OP grip hand. Does it look like "white nuckling" rrick33 put it?

On his YouTube the OP has another video....

http://youtu.be/XPNZcfTEpRY

Skip to 4:12 and it's better lighting. Interestingly, his very last shot (4:35) the grip looks the most loose on follow through as he let his elbow drop.




*** edit ***

To the OP, this thread here....

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=275206

....On pages 1 & 2 (scroll down), has great discussion but also photos from Shane to Mosconi regarding grip upon cue ball address and follow through.
 
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Just a couple of suggestions to try out. If you don't like them it's fine.

1) Use less force in general, the shots are close ones
1.1) loosen grip a bit, use fingers not full hand (full hand only on force shots)

2) Shorten your bridge (distance hand to CB)

3) You shall hit the CB quite a bit before touching your chest so you can follow through enough -> get closer in general, you're standing too far from the CB.

4) Don't stab down at the cloth, try to go more parallel to it.

5) Get a cheap glove (Cuetec), it'll help with a more fluent sliding.

6) Some say, lean into your bridge hand (weight forward), some say be perfectly balanced out - try different weight shifts.

Cheers,
M
 
M.G. said:
Just a couple of suggestions to try out. If you don't like them it's fine.

1) Use less force in general, the shots are close ones
1.1) loosen grip a bit, use fingers not full hand (full hand only on force shots)

2) Shorten your bridge (distance hand to CB)

3) You shall hit the CB quite a bit before touching your chest so you can follow through enough -> get closer in general, you're standing too far from the CB.

4) Don't stab down at the cloth, try to go more parallel to it.

5) Get a cheap glove (Cuetec), it'll help with a more fluent sliding.

6) Some say, lean into your bridge hand (weight forward), some say be perfectly balanced out - try different weight shifts.

Cheers,
M
Click to expand...

Oh my goodness ----- you can't be a teacher or an advanced player. This is just terrible advice. I don't even know where to begin in trying to explain why it's so bad. If you really want me to explain, let me know and I will, but at this point, I'd rather just say to the OP to let that post go.
 
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FranCrimi said:
Oh my goodness ----- you can't be a teacher or an advanced player. This is just terrible advice. I don't even know where to begin in trying to explain why it's so bad. If you really want me to explain, let me know and I will, but at this point, I'd rather just say to the OP to let that post go.
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Herbie,
Listen to Fran here. This forum is full of people that don't know what they are talking about. Or else they talk about what seems to work for them. And they think they know enough to instruct others.

Just be careful who you listen to on here. The only thing I did was to tell you there's a lot of debate on whether to look at the OB or CB last and you needed to do some research and determine the best method for you.

Nice post Fran. I think it applies to MOST of the people that are here on AZB and why I don't pay attention to 95% or more of the posters on here.

r/Mike
 
FranCrimi said:
Oh my goodness ----- you can't be a teacher or an advanced player. This is just terrible advice. I don't even know where to begin in trying to explain why it's so bad. If you really want me to explain, let me know and I will, but at this point, I'd rather just say to the OP to let that post go.
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pool, sex, and teaching pool - three thing you can be bad at and still enjoy.

Unfortunately, though, if someone is bad at the latter two it is the other person who bears the brunt.

It is unfortunate that the wannabes frequently drown out the ones like you who are actually qualified to answer when someone "Asks the Instructor."
 
KissedOut said:
pool, sex, and teaching pool - three thing you can be bad at and still enjoy.

Unfortunately, though, if someone is bad at the latter two it is the other person who bears the brunt.

It is unfortunate that the wannabes frequently drown out the ones like you who are actually qualified to answer when someone "Asks the Instructor."
Click to expand...

agree 100%
great post
 
Cardigan Kid said:
All that being said, Rick, what are your thoughts on the OP grip hand. Does it look like "white nuckling" rrick33 put it?

On his YouTube the OP has another video....

http://youtu.be/XPNZcfTEpRY

Skip to 4:12 and it's better lighting. Interestingly, his very last shot (4:35) the grip looks the most loose on follow through as he let his elbow drop.




*** edit ***

To the OP, this thread here....

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=275206

....On pages 1 & 2 (scroll down), has great discussion but also photos from Shane to Mosconi regarding grip upon cue ball address and follow through.
Click to expand...

Kid,

I could not tell from that type of video how tightly or loosely his connection is to the cue.

I'll just suggest that you & others should keep in mind that connection should be conducive for the intended movement.

In the ones that I think you directed me to it appeared to me that he was using a cuing method rather much like that of CJ Wiley.

As I think I said to you before, I know of no other sport where the athlete does not want control of the implement that they are using to hit the ball.

CJ suggests that ones connection to the cue be firm enough that they can lift the tip & write their name in the air above.

I used that two point connection between the index & thumb for 45+ years but naturally gravitated to a different more full & firm connection when checking out the things that CJ was saying & that then sort of required that pre-set wrist that he also talked about & with that different wrist action... at least at a different TIME of the cue movement. In other words there is no 'pulling' of the cue it is all 'pushing' the cue to & through the ball. CJ referred it as have the shot out in front of him.

Got to run.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick
 
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Sorry Kid, but that is absolutely not true. The "pinned elbow" stroke will most certainly provide ample information about tight grip...if you use video analysis AND you know what to look for. How far you "follow through" has no relevance to whether your grip is tight or not.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Cardigan Kid said:
The pinned elbow will also not expose the tightened grip as well, because his follow through is only a two or three inches.
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EddieBme said:
SVB, Scott Frost, Nick Varner (just to name a couple of players)......move their head or body during final stroke,( making contact with the cue ball)? It looks to me like Scott, and Nick turns their head slightly, and Shane appears to raise up slightly, some shoulder movement and moves forward on final stroke.
I'm sure these players wasn't taught to do that. Any comments?
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Hi Fran....what's your recommendation or suggestions on the above post?
Thanks
 
EddieBme said:
Hi Fran....what's your recommendation or suggestions on the above post?
Thanks
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Hi Eddie. I think their fundamentals are strong enough to withstand occasional slight movement. But that's because they do everything else right. If you look at clips of them over the years, you will find that they don't move all the time.

If you're just learning the game and trying to perfect your fundamentals, strive for no movement, and then the occasional slight unplanned movement shouldn't hurt you. The key word here is 'slight.'
 
FranCrimi said:
Oh my goodness ----- you can't be a teacher or an advanced player. This is just terrible advice.
Click to expand...

It's OK. All I wrote was straight from a Carom trainer who holds the bavarian records in point scored in one inning.
So what possibly could he know about consistency - you are right.

Suggestions are just that - think about them, try them out, change them to fit you.
Can't say that I trust one school more and any other.

In the end it's just about making a fickle thing (human) be consistent.

Cheers,
M
 
M.G. said:
It's OK. All I wrote was straight from a Carom trainer who holds the bavarian records in point scored in one inning.
So what possibly could he know about consistency - you are right.

Suggestions are just that - think about them, try them out, change them to fit you.
Can't say that I trust one school more and any other.

In the end it's just about making a fickle thing (human) be consistent.

Cheers,
M
Click to expand...

Well then you did two things wrong --- you wrote someone else's words as if they were your own without giving them credit, and second, you didn't investigate the advice before repeating it.

Among the many things that were wrong with that advice that you gave, you just recommended that someone try leaning forward. That can lead to injuries in their bridge-arm shoulder. I've seen it over and over. Be very careful about handing out someone else's advice when you don't understand the consequences.
 
FranCrimi said:
Among the many things that were wrong with that advice that you gave, you just recommended that someone try leaning forward.
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If you read carefully I did not.
I said, try it out and "some say ...". At least one Snooker player swears by leaning forward a bit (Shaun Murphy).

All things however are what got me better so naturally I thought repeating it is fine.

Cheers,
M
 
Thanks all for the continued feedback.

RRick, I think you may be onto something there with the tight grip on the cue. I've done a little experimenting with a more relaxed grip and I think I'm getting better draw action. I'll continue working on that and see how it goes.
Cardigan Kid, Same as above, I'll work on not having the tight grip and also the follow through, thanks for linking the video.
M.G. Thanks for taking the time to review the video and make your suggestions.
Fran, I appreciate your advice, if you could please explain more for my benefit it might help me. For example I had considered bringing my bridge hand closer to the cue ball so I could get more follow through without dropping the elbow. Sorry I don't mean to start any arguments between people on the forum.

I need to spend some more time to just practice and experiment with all the helpful advice I've received. For some reason when I'm playing comp or a game I want to win I seem to forget everything. Maybe I need to take the advice from Tor Lowry videos and quit playing competitively for a while until I've fully adjusted and learnt what I want to change. Once that happens I try and take a better video and repost to see if you instructors think I've made any progress or improvements.

Thanks and regards,
Herbie.
 
Herbie, if you adjust your bridge length to be shorter, you will have to also adjust your back hand position on the cue --- so shortening your bridge length won't lengthen your follow through.

The only way to lengthen your follow through with a fixed elbow position is to completely close your arm. That will be the maximum you can get out of your stroke.
 
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