Stroke efficiency

[dizAndyVan]

I've been struggling with getting a good amount of spin on the cue ball for the past year or so. I fall short on intended position when i need 1/4 or 1/2 table draw or when i need enough side spin to take me 2 or 3 rails, and i don't feel like these types are shots are outlandish like full table draw or taking the ball around the table 4 or 5 rails, but i digress.

I've found that i can get much more spin when i bend my bridging elbow more (to approximately 90 degrees between the forearm and the bicep, i usually bend my elbow at approximately 135 degrees between the bicep and forearm) and scoot up closer towards the ball. Also, when scoot up like this, if i hold my cuing hand further back towards the butt (i usually have my forearm pointed straight up and down at the contact point between the cue tip and the cue ball), i can achieve more spin. When i've done this, i can get a consistent amount of spin and i can usually get better position by adjusting how far off-center i hit the cue ball, instead of adjusting speed and using extreme english.

Now my question is, is scooting up to the cue ball a bad habit to achieve draw, and should it be avoided? Or is it better to bend your elbow less and work on a smooth accelerating stroke?

 

[FranCrimi]

Hi. I'm really curious about this. I'd love to see it in action. Is there any way you can film yourself doing it your old way and then your new way and link us to it? I may be able to help with a visual on this.

Fran Crimi
BCA Master Instructor
Former WPBA Touring Pro

 

[Scott Lee]

dizAndyVan...I'm with Fran here. Your description is confusing. If you can post a video, where we can see your stroking arm from the side view, we can give you a definitive answer.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I've been struggling with getting a good amount of spin on the cue ball for the past year or so. I fall short on intended position when i need 1/4 or 1/2 table draw or when i need enough side spin to take me 2 or 3 rails, and i don't feel like these types are shots are outlandish like full table draw or taking the ball around the table 4 or 5 rails, but i digress.

I've found that i can get much more spin when i bend my bridging elbow more (to approximately 90 degrees between the forearm and the bicep, i usually bend my elbow at approximately 135 degrees between the bicep and forearm) and scoot up closer towards the ball. Also, when scoot up like this, if i hold my cuing hand further back towards the butt (i usually have my forearm pointed straight up and down at the contact point between the cue tip and the cue ball), i can achieve more spin. When i've done this, i can get a consistent amount of spin and i can usually get better position by adjusting how far off-center i hit the cue ball, instead of adjusting speed and using extreme english.

Now my question is, is scooting up to the cue ball a bad habit to achieve draw, and should it be avoided? Or is it better to bend your elbow less and work on a smooth accelerating stroke?

 

[dizAndyVan]

I don't have a video camera, but i'll see what i can do with the webcam on my laptop, and hopefully i'll have something tonight or tomorrow. Thanks for the help guys

 

[Not Dead Ted]

I am not an instructor, and for that matter, I don't really play very well. But, I do the same thing that you do, and here is why I think it works:

1. Bending your elbow more allows you to choke-up on the cue with your back hand, and it gets your entire body lower on the shot. If you combine this with resting the bridge-hand forearm on the table surface, it gives you a lot of additional stability. IMO, the positioning is more stable, but you sacrifice visual alignment, so it is probably better for short CB-OB distances.

2. With your forearm on the deck, your bridge gets lower and is more stable.

3. As you are dropping your body lower, the rear of the stick should go with it, perhaps getting it more level than usual and avoiding masse effects.

4. As you get lower, you may get an elbow position (shoulder angle) that is easier to produce a pendulum stroke from. Because of the better stability and choking up on the cue, I think it allows a longer draw back on the pendulum.

Since I do it, it is probably a bad habit.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Just lower your bridge. Try to curl your middle finger under your bridge hand to get real low.

I def wouldn't curl my arm up like that. For one, it's unneeded. Second, I'm not sure it's fundamentally sound. I'd keep my left arm the same for every shot. Bridge length can shorten/length. Bridge can be raised and lowered. But, I wouldn't cock your arm at a 90deg angle.

I can't think of one great player who shoots like that.

Dave

 

[dizAndyVan]

IMO, the positioning is more stable, but you sacrifice visual alignment, so it is probably better for short CB-OB distances.

I completely agree with this, and this why i asked myself and everyone else this question, do i change my form to suit my stroke or do i change my stroke to fit my form? In one instance i feel like i can get a more consistent and reliable and efficient stroke, but i feel like i can aim better with the stance i'm already using.

For one, it's unneeded. Second, I'm not sure it's fundamentally sound. I'd keep my left arm the same for every shot.
But, I wouldn't cock your arm at a 90deg angle.

Yeah, i wanted to know if the instructors think this form is unsound and I was sitting at my desk when i described the angles of my arms, and the actual arm angles are actually wider than i described. Honest mistake

Anyway, here are the videos

These first two i'm standing in the position i've been comfortable with for the past year or so
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SYuU1actYU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DOdJV83UaU

And these second two ive bent my arm more, its not necessarily uncomfortable
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv7wmazP2wg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bagosL-j_wA

I tried to keep my stroke at a consistent speed, but a consistent stroke speed is something i also need to work on.

Sorry for the long post, thanks for the comments guys, i really appreciate it

Edit: Also any comments on other things i may be doing wrong would greatly be appreciated. elbow drop, follow through, etc.

 

[Ratta]

Just lower your bridge. Try to curl your middle finger under your bridge hand to get real low.

I def wouldn't curl my arm up like that. For one, it's unneeded. Second, I'm not sure it's fundamentally sound. I'd keep my left arm the same for every shot. Bridge length can shorten/length. Bridge can be raised and lowered. But, I wouldn't cock your arm at a 90deg angle.

I can't think of one great player who shoots like that.

Dave

Dave my friend

perhaps you would have described better what you mean exactly- perhaps a bit confusing for the guy here

The often *discussed* 90° angle: Here we re talking about your forearm of your "strokearm". "we say" that your forearm should be vertical to the "floor" (90° degrees) if you re tip contacts the cueball-- But usualy it can differ a bit for several players. You have to find *your sweet spot* where you hit the cueball at the point the way YOU want. To find this "sweet spot" is one of the keys to execute a reproducable straight stroke. (next to alignment your body etc. ). Here an instructor or qualified person would be a good choice. Imo hard to find this out on your own, if you have already a problem here.

lg
Ingo

 

[3kushn]

When your arm is bent you're also standing much lower. IMO your lower stance is allowing you to see the correct contact point for better draw. In other words I think in your regular stance you're not hitting the CB as low as you think you are.

Just a thought.

 

[FranCrimi]

OK Thanks for posting the links. I think that when you are bending your arm, it is shifting your weight much more forward, causing you to lean on your bridge hand. Notice how your cue stick bends in your follow through when you bend your arm. That comes from weight on your bridge hand. I'm sure you've seen players who bend their shaft when they break in 9-Ball. Sigel was a notorious shaft-bender, because as he threw his body forward in the break shot, he put all of his weight on his bridge hand.

But this isn't a break shot. If you make that your stance, you will wind up with intense shoulder pain over time and possibly even develop problematic shoulder joint problems.

Your problem is one of two - three things: You are either setting up your bridge hand too high on the shot, which makes it a perceptual problem. Don't be afraid to scrape the cloth with your cue tip in your follow through. That's a good draw stroke when you do that. So if you have to lower your bridge to do that, then do it.

Another possibility is that you are setting your bridge hand low enough but your bridge hand is not firmly planted on the table and the speed of the cue coming through shifts your hand position.

Or maybe it's a little of all of the above. Get used to locking down your bridge hand (and your body) and scraping the cloth in your follow through. You did it when you were leaning on your hand and bending the shaft.

You also have some issues with your stroke timing, and that's very common. All of this stuff is related. Try bringing your cue stick back a little more slowly and deliberately. Don't go on automatic pilot once you start to stroke. Orchestrate your moves. Once you get them to where you're happy, then you can go on auto-pilot.

P.S. I agree with Randy that you may want to experiment a bit with your bridge length, particularly on draw shots.

Good luck,
Fran Crimi
BCA Master Instructor
Former WPBA Touring PRo

 

[randyg]

Hi dizandyvan. Welcome to our pool World.

Nice vids. Now there may be some help.

Do away with the bent forearm. That's silly.

I like your stroke. Elbow stays firm and it looks like your grip is relaxed. One thing for sure is you need to study SPF. You really have a continuous cue, that will hurt your overall performance.

Conduct an experiment for me. Shorten your bridge length by a couple of inches and see what happens.

For sure you need to incorporate SPF for a more refined stroke process.

What City do you live in?

Good luck,
randyg

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Anyway, here are the videos ...

Were you getting as much draw as you intended? How does it go if you have to draw the cue ball six feet? The shots you showed didn't require much power and so do not tax your fundamentals; they appear to be well within your comfort range.

As for a bent left arm, some examples of a moderate amount of bend that seems to work for the players who do it is in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btmB-p_0QFg and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TB0_7f5ft4

Your bridge is much, much longer than it needs to be for the power you were using. If you use a shorter bridge, it is easier to hit where you intend on the cue ball. If you use a training ball or a stripe for the cue ball, you can look for the chalk spot afterwards to see how low you hit on the ball.

 

[dizAndyVan]

But usualy it can differ a bit for several players. You have to find *your sweet spot* where you hit the cueball at the point the way YOU want.

So it's ok to hold the cue further back, but it's usually close to 90 degrees (perpendicular to the floor), and its not a good idea to hold the cue by the buttcap.

Or maybe it's a little of all of the above. Get used to locking down your bridge hand (and your body) and scraping the cloth in your follow through. You did it when you were leaning on your hand and bending the shaft.

I do believe i have a perceptual problem when i've stood further back, but when i aim a smidgen lower the ball likes to jump, especially on shots that require more draw. Is this a stroke problem?

What City do you live in?

On the edge of Garden Grove and Anaheim next to Disneyland, California

Were you getting as much draw as you intended? How does it go if you have to draw the cue ball six feet?

Actually, yes, because the shots in the stroke were "effortless" and i didnt try to draw, i placed the cue tip low. When i practiced last night there was a shot on the 2 ball that was 5 diamonds away on the table and i ended drawing it almost straight back 5 diamonds for position on the three. i actually held the cue all the at the back, so that the pinky was cradling the buttcap as described above, and bridged at the pivot point so i wouldnt miss. I've tried the same shot with my bridging arm straighter and it either jumps because i think i'm hitting too low or it ends up being a stun/stop shot.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Dave my friend

perhaps you would have described better what you mean exactly- perhaps a bit confusing for the guy here

The often *discussed* 90° angle: Here we re talking about your forearm of your "strokearm". "we say" that your forearm should be vertical to the "floor" (90° degrees) if you re tip contacts the cueball-- But usualy it can differ a bit for several players. You have to find *your sweet spot* where you hit the cueball at the point the way YOU want. To find this "sweet spot" is one of the keys to execute a reproducable straight stroke. (next to alignment your body etc. ). Here an instructor or qualified person would be a good choice. Imo hard to find this out on your own, if you have already a problem here.

lg
Ingo

Ingo --- he was referring to his "bridge arm" not his shooting arm. Check out the 2nd set of videos he posted and you'll see.

Edit;

Now that I watched the videos, you DEFINITELY DO NOT want to setup with that cocked arm in the 2nd set of videos. Your first set -- your setup wasn't terribly bad and you looked smooth. Fran said it best--- lower your bridge. You're likely not hitting as low as you think.

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[dizAndyVan]

4. Don't start your warmup strokes until your body is positioned just where you want it. Too many times you were moving your body during your warmup strokes.

About this, I used to have this huge problem with dropping my elbow to keep the cue as level as possible. It looked exactly like this stroke in the John Higgins video posted earlier http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TB0_7f5ft4&t=1m19s. Since then i fashioned myself a stroke trainer and have forced myself to learn the pendulum stroke, but now the cue hits my chin and my chest making my body move. Does anyone or their students have this problem?

Thanks everybody who's contributed to the thread, i'm going to try everything mentioned in this thread and i'm sure it will improve my game.

 

[randyg]

About this, I used to have this huge problem with dropping my elbow to keep the cue as level as possible. It looked exactly like this stroke in the John Higgins video posted earlier http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TB0_7f5ft4&t=1m19s. Since then i fashioned myself a stroke trainer and have forced myself to learn the pendulum stroke, but now the cue hits my chin and my chest making my body move. Does anyone or their students have this problem?

Thanks everybody who's contributed to the thread, i'm going to try everything mentioned in this thread and i'm sure it will improve my game.

First, your cue only has to be level at the time of contact. With a good pendulum stroke, which you have, this is easy.

Second, raise you chin an inch or two in your address position. That will stop the cue from "knocking you out" of line.

Scott Lee is scheduled in your area very soon. Contact Scott about a day's lesson. Scott can solve these and more.

randyg

 

[FranCrimi]

Originally Posted by FranCrimi
Or maybe it's a little of all of the above. Get used to locking down your bridge hand (and your body) and scraping the cloth in your follow through. You did it when you were leaning on your hand and bending the shaft.

By: dizAndyVan: I do believe i have a perceptual problem when i've stood further back, but when i aim a smidgen lower the ball likes to jump, especially on shots that require more draw. Is this a stroke problem?


There could be a couple of reasons why you're jumping the cue ball. It could be where you're holding the cue stick in the back, or the length of your bridge, or if you're pumping your cue stick during your stroke. You would probably be best served by getting some help. Here is a list of BCA instructors in California that I've copied and pasted from the BCA web site. In the copying process, I noticed that the instructors' first names are showing up above their last names:

Nedim
Tosyali Boulder Creek
CA Recognized 415-508-8272
goldengatepool.com

Mel
Hendrix Santa Rosa
CA Recognized 707-578-1317

Tom
Stone Aliso Viejo
CA Recognized 949-981-3489

Stephen
Bailey Phelan
CA Certified 760-868-3859

Lynn
Westhoven Martinez
CA Recognized 510-622-2568
www.cuemechanics.net

Stanley
Leong Roseville
CA Recognized 916-276-8903
www.straightshotpool.com

Allan
Sand Santa Clara
CA Recognized 408-986-7408
www.billiardgods.com

Ted
Ito Sacramento
CA Advanced 916-428-2019

Joseph
Mejia Millbrae
CA Master (650) 873-4658
www.sfbilliards.com

Derald "Dodge"
Johnson San Diego
CA Recognized 858-271-4418

Tim
Dimacchia Santa Clara
CA Certified 408-527-7117
www.breaknrun.info


David
Kraus El Dorado Hills
CA Recognized 916.933.4378

Patrick
Clark Smith River
CA Recognized 707-487-2501

Howard
Kennedy Santa Monica
CA Certified 310-395-7149

Todd
Leveck Riverside
CA Recognized 951-689-2966
www.billiardsinstruction.com

Bob
Jewett Santa Clara
CA Advanced 408-553-7449
www.sfbilliards.com

Michael
Menth Torrance
CA Recognized 310-320-7764


Tom
Seymour San Francisco
CA Certified 415-577-1520
www.beginnersmindpool.com
Jim
Barnard San Diego
CA Recognized (619) 422-5307

Larry
Davis Irvine
CA Recognized 925-815-5189

Mark
Whitehead Anaheim
CA Recognized 562-594-7345

Art
Krasnow West Los Angeles
CA Recognized 866-224-3587

Ronald
Schneider Huntington Beach
CA Certified 714-545-5580
www.rx4pool.com

Aaron
Lodge Santa Cruz
CA Certified 831-600-3030


Doug
Whaley Antioch
CA Recognized 925-642-6985
www.poolmentor.com

 

[molotokas]

Hey, you all. So I am pretty new to pool it's been six months with a cue in my hand and probably these problems you mentioned are for us noobies to figure out, progress comes slow, smallpox is fast...

Thus, you probably should not take for granted what's going to follow. At first I thought that the lack of spin on a cue ball is due to rigid conditions I am forced to play on. I visit local pool room that happens to be in UK where snooker is far superior and pool tables are left to wait for a chance to catch fire. Balls are cracked and stained and cloth is probably more like glass. However, these are the things which have helped the whitey go yoyo.

I use Filipino loop bridge. I reckon you can get very low with it, yet your fingers will be sore because you might want to put them in a gym for some stretching.

I found that if you dare to tighten up your grip just before the cue ball takes off during a draw shot, CB is likely to take off - air borne.

Grip wrist is where the magic lays (maybe?). Keeping it loose (throughout every section of your stroke) and trusting it. Do what I call a Busty challenge, try to go as low as you can on the cue ball for like a week you might be surprised (as i was) that miscue limits, are just like limits in Matrix. YOU CAN BEND THEM!

When you want to use only side spin with no follow or draw, try to go for 4 o'clock rather than 3 o'clock. Hitting CB bellow centre, I observed, puts more spin on it rather than hitting in along the horizontal axis.

And don't trust what I say, but damn it in this bloody place I have no on to talk pool with... )