Stroke feedback??

[pooltchr]

A further point could be made by noting the stroke of Raymond Ceulemanns, a World Champion 3-cushion player who has a notably abbreviated follow through but still achieves monster spin. The follow through is only to ensure a smooth stroke, which in turn delivers the cue tip accurately to the cue ball. As soon as the cue tip finishes compressing the cue ball departs. If your cue stick weighed as little as a cue ball, this would be different. My follow through is occasionally as long as an inch but I can still draw the cue ball the length of the table on a table length shot.

I totally agree. My questions were that since rorywayne posted that he had pros tell him how long his follow through should be, I wondered what the determining factors might have been, and what the reasoning behind the suggestion was.

I listen to many people, but I always ask "why". If there is no good answer to that question, the advice may or may not be good.

Steve

 

[duckie]

Thanks man. I think people are just suggesting but I am not going to change anything drastically. I'm trying to come up with a solid practice routine. I would like to enter a pro tourney by next year sometime. It's hard to play at that level when you have a full time job, a 2 year old, and a wedding to help plan by June but I'm going to figure it out.

First start with a real honest evaluation of your current skill set. This will give you direction for areas you need to work on. It is important to keep your strengths in tune, more, more important to work on turning your weaknesses into strengths.

Without knowing what these are, its hard for me to really suggest anything specific.

Practice needs to be hard. If you are just making shot after shot, one of two things are true, you are a pool god, or the shots your are making are just too easy.

I will say that I do the 15 ball drill alot. Try this one, put all 15 balls between the side pockets and the corner pockets at one end of the table. None in clusters or on rails. Now, run as many as you can without hitting another ball or a rail. Learning to hit the pocket with a wide range of pocket speed is very critical. It can mean the difference between a drop or a rattle

Then modify this to doing what I call in and out. There where you make a ball then go the the rail. Then I look to try to bump balls to make shots.

I like doing the bank, carom or combo version. Thats where the only shots I can make are a bank, carom, combo, or some mix of the three. The value of this is in it makes you try shots you normally never see in tourney play, but whenever one does happen to do so, you can shoot it with confidence because of practice.

I also find that his drill has helped my accuracy overall. Some of these shot, especially caroms and combos have to be hit right in all ways.

It also makes you slow down and look over the table for shots.

I've made some really cool shots with the bank, carom, or combo drill. There have been times in 8 ball tourneys that being able to confidently hit combos/banks lead me to winning the match. One game in paticular, just because the way my balls and the the other person balls laid on the table, I did two combos and a bank in order to get my balls out of the cluster and not move his balls at all. Some would have played a safe and was what he was thinking when he played a safe on me. However, I sent a real clear message when I did the two combo and bank while he was standing next to the table wanting for me to miss or play safe. He sat down after the bank and next time he got up was to rack. The message was I came to play and you better be ready for me. Anyway.....

Practice with purpose, make your practice harder as your skills increase and most of all, do not ever put a time frame on your development. Give yourself time to grow.

 

[Zivan1967]

Thanks man. I think people are just suggesting but I am not going to change anything drastically. I'm trying to come up with a solid practice routine. I would like to enter a pro tourney by next year sometime. It's hard to play at that level when you have a full time job, a 2 year old, and a wedding to help plan by June but I'm going to figure it out.

When i throw all 15 balls on the table i first run out playing 8 ball then run the rest playing rotation. If you miss, set the shot up again (trying to get everything close to how it was before you missed) because the shots you miss are the ones you should be practicing. After doing this for a while i remember which shots i had trouble with and do 20 of each as practice.

I also like to put 3 solid 3 stripe and the 8 all near one end of the table (within 2 diamonds spread out randomly with 1 cluster), I then take the cue ball and place it randomly on the other side of the table within 1 diamond from the end rail. Then try to do the same thing, run out 8 ball then rotation. It's less to shoot so shot choices are more important and your first shot is always very long. This one helps me get comfortable with long shots and when playing someone who leaves you long missing a two way shot it won't feel as bad because you left yourself long on purpose many times.

When i do these practice drills everyday i do notice my game picking up especially the long shot one. I would definitely avoid throwing all balls on the table and just shooting anything because in competition you never do that so you shouldn't practice it. (14.1 is an exception but the balls are rarely spread all over the table evenly anyway so might as well rack a break shot and play it from there)

If you plan to play against pros my advice is practice kicking too.

 

[thefonz]

looks fine to me

stroke looks fine, pay no attention to the no elbow dropping suggestions.

one thing to note though, you'll benefit from a more deliberate pre shot routine, feather (stroke before you strike the ball), follow through, and staying down. if you watch your video, your backswing is longer than your follow through, which is usually a recipe for a decellerating hit on the cueball. try going back slower, or shorter than your follow through, pause or hesitate, and you should notice that you'll get through the cueball better, get around the table easier, and control your weight and spin more accurately. good luck

 

[West Point 1987]

For what it's worth (not much, believe me)...I would look at getting slightly lower over the ball (you're used to playing in constricted spaces, huh?). Spread your feet just a tad more. That should cut down on the elbow drop a little. You also have a very slight twisting action in your right hand when completing the follow through, sort of a back hand english thing. If that's what you're going for, okay, but try not to and see what happens. As for the banging drill, you shot pretty sporty IMHO :thumbup:...got out of trouble a couple of times and even when you missed, you still got kind of where you needed to be for the next shot. Rotation drills will radically help you stay in line, and exercise most of the stuff you would do with banging out a random 15 ball rack...even playing yourself 8 ball would do more for you, force you to play two or three shots ahead. Just shooting random rack makes you lazy (what ever leave you get chooses your next shot). Also, try using two rails after cue ball contact to get to the center of the table, using speed and spin to adjust the angle to avoid contact with other balls. You're pretty handy at follow and using spin, but you do seem to end up closer to the foot rail and head rail then you meant to. But at the end of the day, do WHAT WORKS most for you. I'm always amazed at how horrible Mike Davis' stroke is, his feet about a yard and a half apart, teeter totter warm up, etc. and he can make shots and control the white ball like very few people...BIG RUNs in 14.1, too...and Keith McCready's side arm stroke shook the World, once upon a time...(and may again!):smile:

 

[Fatboy]

I got a new camera and I decided to record myself shooting to maybe see if I was doing anything wrong in my stroke. Below is the link. All constructive criticism is welcome. It's just a video of me running some balls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtPDUzdWYww

This isnt about your stroke, I touched on that issue and sent you a REP message.

I want to comment on how GOOD you line up. No matter how good any players stroke is if they dont line up right they will miss everytime with their perfect stroke(thats a widely debated topic). What isnt debatable is lining up, either you do or you dont. And you line up GREAT, you proved that with all the point and shoot shots you blasted the back of the pockets with.

So first things first, remember how your lining up-Dont forget that because it is working great. Then take into consideration your stroke. Mike Davis has a terrible stroke(I'm not knocking you mike, I respect you a ton, your a great champion) but Mikes stroke is technically bad but he can shoot my nuts off 7 days a week, Hopkins has a bad back stroke but he follows through great. My point is Mike and Alan both line up great and have very unusail strokes. Lining up is more important than a stroke IMO.

Max Eberly helped me learn how to line up, I cant type so much to explaine it all, but I was missing a lot of balls because I wasnt lined up right. Artie bordorfordender the one Pocket champion helped me on lining up as well. Those guys helped me so much because I wasnt lining up right.


I have awalys had a pretty stroke, I look like I play better than I do. I have had guys(years ago whe there was action with strangers) say to me "I wouldnt play a guy with a stroke like yours unless they gave me the 7, and I still might not play", truth was I couldnt beat them If I was getting the 7. I wasnt lining up good, but had a nice stroke.


I shared that with you so yu dont start changing to much at once and get frustraited or drop a ball in speed. Keep you lineing up alone and then slowly devlop a stroke, I did the oppsite when I was comming up(i focused on my stroke)-I had no teachers, unless they just beat me and then back then you might get a few minutes of lessions. Nowdays everyone is helping everyone.

best of luck,

your doing good.

Eric


if there is any doubt about my stroke, ask Mike Massey he has seen it-recently. I am not near the player I should be because of lapeses in concentration and lining up-I lose a pile of games I shoulnt. I figure my pool game will peak when i'm 50, i've awalys been a slow starter at things in life.

 

[rrick33]

Stroke feedback

I'm sure you wouldn't have posted this thread requesting feedback if you weren't interested in improving your game. Be very careful taking advice from the peanut gallery, especially when they say.."it looks good, don't change a thing". All players have bad habbits, even the pros. Don't fall prey to advice that that says, "that pro drops his elbow and does just fine"...suggesting you don't need to change. The truth is, you're not that pro and you don't see the ball or stroke the shot exactly the same way. There are several things that would improve your skills and some have been addressed in previous responses but quite frankly, you would be best served by seeking a few lessons from an instructor.

 

[iownthe412]

I'm sure you wouldn't have posted this thread requesting feedback if you weren't interested in improving your game. Be very careful taking advice from the peanut gallery, especially when they say.."it looks good, don't change a thing". All players have bad habbits, even the pros. Don't fall prey to advice that that says, "that pro drops his elbow and does just fine"...suggesting you don't need to change. The truth is, you're not that pro and you don't see the ball or stroke the shot exactly the same way. There are several things that would improve your skills and some have been addressed in previous responses but quite frankly, you would be best served by seeking a few lessons from an instructor.

Agreed, to a certain extent. Some of the people who have noted that my stroke is fine are reputable people with experience while others are not. Thanks for the post rrick, I am looking to improve my game but not looking to change things drastically. I shoot well enough now but I know I need to tweak a couple of things to get to the next level. I beleive strict practice and focus is what I need. I would love to have the same exact stroke each and every shot but it is impossible. I take a lot of what people say on here with a grain of salt but when it comes to certain people I listen and I will always ask the question, "why." And many TOP pros do in fact drop their elbow. I have watched a lot of SVB playing and he drops his elbow quite a bit and so does Earl. I'm not saying this is the right or wrong way to shoot, but whatever is comfortable and gets the job done should be exectuted, IMO.

 

[iownthe412]

Maybe I just need some freakin yoga to improve my focus. I told my fiance I would never do yoga but maybe now is the time.

 

[PistolPat]

theres no exact measurement.....

Just wondering....how long did they tell you your follow through should be?

Its not an exact number but for the shot I was doing ( Extreme follow ) from where my tip usually ended to where they pointed out where it roughly should be..I'm guessing 3-4 ball lengths...

How did they determine how long it should be?

By watching me and basically dissecting my execution...

How do you measure your follow through?

Set up another ball parallel next to the cb...hit the cb with your normal follow through and stop and see how far past the cb your cue goes...Oscar showed me that

Is it the same length every time?

Absolutely not! It varied horribly because learning to add however many inches to your follow through ( especialy 6-8! requires you to adjust your stroke accordingly. My arm drop went from minimal to extreme...and you know what....it worked! For that particular stroke shot I am within the same area at the end of my follow through..usually off by no more than half an inch to an inch....

At first NOT EVEN CLOSE..Steve

...............................

 

[Danzing3]

I'm sure you wouldn't have posted this thread requesting feedback if you weren't interested in improving your game. Be very careful taking advice from the peanut gallery, especially when they say.."it looks good, don't change a thing". All players have bad habbits, even the pros. Don't fall prey to advice that that says, "that pro drops his elbow and does just fine"...suggesting you don't need to change. The truth is, you're not that pro and you don't see the ball or stroke the shot exactly the same way. There are several things that would improve your skills and some have been addressed in previous responses but quite frankly, you would be best served by seeking a few lessons from an instructor.

And you may be the leader of the peanut gallery:grin:

 

[iownthe412]

I really don't want you all to think that I am new to this game. I know enough about the game to differentiate BS and actual know-how. I am strictly looking for experienced guidance on my stroke. I think there are enough tools on AZ (not meaning tools as in idiotic people) and on the internet that I can progress on my own without having to take lessons. I have progressed in a short amount of time already on my own as I have really only been playing for about 3 1/2 years. I hope to progress more and more with the help of some of the people on this site.

Thanks for all your help; it is greatly appreciated,
Ian

 

[PistolPat]

Thanks man. I think people are just suggesting but I am not going to change anything drastically. I'm trying to come up with a solid practice routine. I would like to enter a pro tourney by next year sometime. It's hard to play at that level when you have a full time job, a 2 year old, and a wedding to help plan by June but I'm going to figure it out.

Yeah I hear ya... EVERYONE here imho has sound advice...when it comes to how THEY shoot. I hope you do well when you enter a pro tourney and it is hard to play at that level without enough time at the table...I have the same problem..but I've found ways to help me with that..NOTEBOOK. Keep one..take it with you when you practice and write down everything from your fundamentals to missing cut shots to the left etc...Doing this will greatly reduce the learning curve. You'll figure out what you are doing wrong and what you are doing right...what you are not doing and what you are doing......trust me..

 

[pooltchr]

,
I am looking to improve my game but not looking to change things drastically.

Do you see just a little bit of irony in that statement?
In order to improve, change is often required.
If you keep doing the same things, you get the same results.
You say you are looking for better results, but you don't want to change what you are doing.

Maybe just a little change is ok? Maybe that will get you a little improvement.

I'm just suggesting that if you really want to improve, you have to be open minded enough to try anything that can give you an edge.

Just sayin'

Steve

 

[duckie]

Do you see just a little bit of irony in that statement?
In order to improve, change is often required.
If you keep doing the same things, you get the same results.
You say you are looking for better results, but you don't want to change what you are doing.

Maybe just a little change is ok? Maybe that will get you a little improvement.

I'm just suggesting that if you really want to improve, you have to be open minded enough to try anything that can give you an edge.

Just sayin'

Steve

Maybe you should get some instruction on reading comprehension. He is not unwilling to change to improve, he is just unwilling to make any big changes that aren't needed.

If he didn't want to improve, this thread would have never existed.

Just sayin..

 

[iownthe412]

Do you see just a little bit of irony in that statement?
In order to improve, change is often required.
If you keep doing the same things, you get the same results.
You say you are looking for better results, but you don't want to change what you are doing.

Maybe just a little change is ok? Maybe that will get you a little improvement.

I'm just suggesting that if you really want to improve, you have to be open minded enough to try anything that can give you an edge.

Just sayin'

Steve

Steve,

I am willing to change a few things, just not everything. I should have worded that a little differently. I have actually tried a couple of things that you have suggested so far and they have worked a bit but not much. I am totally open minded to any suggestions ANYONE has, especially someone with experience. Your guidance thus far has been much appreciated (trust me) and I thank you.

Ian

 

[pooltchr]

Steve,

I am willing to change a few things, just not everything. I should have worded that a little differently. I have actually tried a couple of things that you have suggested so far and they have worked a bit but not much. I am totally open minded to any suggestions ANYONE has, especially someone with experience. Your guidance thus far has been much appreciated (trust me) and I thank you.

Ian

You don't need to make major changes to improve. But a little change here and a little change there can bump your game up a notch. The trick is to find enough of those little changes, recognize the ones that help, and disregard those that don't.

That is the real value of a good instructor. You can learn a lot from books and dvds, but they are very general in nature. A good instructor who can identify those subtle little things is worth their weight in gold.

I've been working with a student who was a solid player when we first started. One minor change we made was in his stance as it relates to his body angle to the cue stick. It was a small change, but he almost immediately noticed a big difference.

Finding the keys to a better game is kinda like panning for gold...you gotta slosh through a lot of mud to find those nuggets!

Steve

 

[iownthe412]

Well Steve (and others) was right!! I played in the weekly tournament last night which I usually win anyway but last night was ridiculous. I minimized my elbow drop and widened my stance a bit. Lost the first match to a very strong player on the hill (dry break for me and an easy 1/9 combo for him). I bought back in and only lost 4 games out of a total of over 40 (6 matches). I had 5 break and runs and snapped 1 9 on the break. I wanted to say thanks to not only Steve, but everyone else who contributed to this thread.

 

[Monkey-Boy]

Well Steve (and others) was right!! I played in the weekly tournament last night which I usually win anyway but last night was ridiculous. I minimized my elbow drop and widened my stance a bit. Lost the first match to a very strong player on the hill (dry break for me and an easy 1/9 combo for him). I bought back in and only lost 4 games out of a total of over 40 (6 matches). I had 5 break and runs and snapped 1 9 on the break. I wanted to say thanks to not only Steve, but everyone else who contributed to this thread.

Get a new vid on how your shooting now

For me, based on the vid, get a Pre-Shot Routine, learn it, memorise it, then put it in the back of your mind and forget about it (conciously). When you play, your unconcious will bring out the routine you have learned. You look like you can shoot some too!

 

[iownthe412]

I'll try to post a new vid of me tomorrow. I won't be home to do it tonight. I started a new pre-shot routine but it hasen't fully gone out of my mind yet, I still have to think about it. I had a pre shot routine in the first video, I just wasn't using it. I was just hittin balls around, testing out my new camera for the most part. Thanks, yea I can play a little.