Stroke Instructor Challenge

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By the way Neil, your avatar photo seems to demonstrate the first post perfectly as your shoulder appears to be outside the line of eye, grip, and tip. If it appears that way, why shouldn't he ask about that? And he did not arrogantly say that this is proper, he ASKED.... Just sayin'.....
 
pooltchr said:
How do you determine what is natural? I played pool for many years, and my approach and set up was natural, as in, I just did what felt right.

I went to pool school, and learned more about moving the cue, and changed how I set up and stroke a pool shot. At first, it was not natural, but over time, I worked on it to the point where it is now natural.

Fran, you and I have done this with hundreds of students. What they come to us with is natural for them. What we try to do is help them make the improved version become natural. Bad habits can be natural...so can good habits. Which "natural" is better?

Steve
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Steve, I think you bring up an excellent point. It's important for people discussing a subject to first agree on the definitions of terms. I'm not sure myself what 'natural' means. I've been equating it with 'optimal' which is what I believe luckwouldhaveit meant. To me, 'natural' goes WITH as opposed to AGAINST the body's anatomy. Lots of people claim they feel comfortable in awkward stances. They just don't know any different, but I wouldn't think that means that they're in a natural stance.

Here's an example. Turn your head and look hard over your left shoulder. Now picture yourself staying that way for hours. There are lots of people who play pool that way. What must it be doing to their necks? Yikes! Not to mention the effects all along the body- top to bottom.

I think about people who are called 'naturals' in any sport. To me, a 'natural' in any sport is someone who's body is in sync with their anatomy while playing their sport and fell into it naturally, without any outside assistance. Of course there are mental in-sync aspects going on as well.
 
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FranCrimi said:
......I'm a huge fan of leaning back to counter the forward bend. Some top players don't even realize that they do it. I know of one top player who taught a student of mine to lean forward ( and messed up his game for awhile) but actually leans back when shooting.

Either way, that is just one factor that affects the upper body. You sound knowledgable, so I imagine you know that another huge factor is the actual placement of feet relative to the line of the shot. There are several different combinations of placement, each having an affect on the upper body and the elbow, as well as affecting the player's balance points. When I get a chance, I will study the players stances on luckwouldhaveit's photos before I agree or disagree on anything he/she said. I'm inclined to disagree that it's an optimal position for the elbow, regardless of which players shoot that way, but we'll see.....
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This is very interesting. I used to put weight on my back leg as a counterbalance but was told not to do that long time ago and gradually moved forward.
Later I injured my right leg (non pool related) and being forward became a necessity for a long period of time. As the leg got better, I moved back and became more balanced.

As for what is natural or being just comfortable, those things can be both and be totally wrong.
Over the 5 years I have made so many changes and have tried so many different things that I no longer know what is really natural for me.
I can only go by cause and effect, cue moves straight, balls go in, all is good.
If opposite is happening then adjustments have to be made.
The confusing part is what adjustments to make, changing one single thing will change another and so the wheel spins.

When comes to stance, I have tried a bunch of different ways, snooker stance, various pool stances.
In the end I like bend in front leg, back leg straight.
Front leg usually points in the same direction as the cue, back leg on the cueing line.
The angle of the back foot to the cue right now is sharp NE which creates more compact stance.
I have tried pointing back foot more East but that seems to introduce bend in the knee and the stance becomes less stable or so it seems.
Don’t know what is right or wrong, there are just variations on the theme.

Anyway, looking forward to your conclusions on the stance of the professionals.
 
Neil said:
Since you asked, go re-read the thread again. Apparently you missed that part too. Try reading more than just his first edited post. As far as it not being my thread, I never said it was. He asked for instructor input. As he later stated, it was intensionally done to make instructors look bad. Try reading posts 123,126, and a few others.

Bottom line is, he doesn't know what he doesn't know, and apparently, neither do you. IF he had asked nicely, truly wanting to learn something, he would have received his answer long ago. However, with his attitude, he isn't getting the answers you want to hear. The only answer he wants is for all instructors to admit that what we have been teaching for years is all wrong, and thank him for finally setting us straight. And, those phrases are from his previous posts.
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I took a look at post 126. The shot at you is priceless for everything else there is visa apparently. You sound arrogant and angry no matter what you say.... and in the end there is limited substance - it is an art. :)
 
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about posts 123, 126; using the voice of Bambi

Neil said:
Since you asked, go re-read the thread again. Apparently you missed that part too. Try reading more than just his first edited post. As far as it not being my thread, I never said it was. He asked for instructor input. As he later stated, it was intensionally done to make instructors look bad. Try reading posts 123,126, and a few others.

Bottom line is, he doesn't know what he doesn't know, and apparently, neither do you. IF he had asked nicely, truly wanting to learn something, he would have received his answer long ago. However, with his attitude, he isn't getting the answers you want to hear. The only answer he wants is for all instructors to admit that what we have been teaching for years is all wrong, and thank him for finally setting us straight. And, those phrases are from his previous posts.
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At the point of posts 123 and 126, feathers were ruffled on both sides. I think the OP could have kept the calm tone he started out with in his first few posts, agreed. But going back to the beginning, the OP seems to have made Fran Crimi feel challenged. Which he came right out and said. She had the choice to answer or not answer, but chose to challenge back. She has a fine reputation which I do not want to disparage here. But I pointed out to her, not to you, that I believed the OP had in fact put his opinion in the original post. My mistake was that I should have made my point to her with a PM. My point was simple. Think about this; if the OP had adressed this after paying for a lesson, would he have gotten an answer or a question? Students don't like to pay for questions, unless they know Socrates has been reincarnated. Instead of listing the many instructors who took my money first then gave me more questions than answers, I will say that Nick Varner answers students' questions and is nice about it. Pattern yourself after him and you won't find yourself fact-checking posts. You'll be too busy teaching.....
Apart from that, remember not to post questions on here unless you have answered your own questions FIRST.
 
I would like to side step the debating and possibly say what we innocent bystanders :wink: are thinking...what about the original poster's mention about the offset elbow alignment? A personal observation of mine over the years is that many players that use the tucked back elbow positioning, play at a more consistent level than the "chicken wingers". The straight shooters (elbow in line) obviously are doing something right and I'm not talking about those lucky bastitches.

I find if I let the elbow fly out on a hard stroke, I run into all kinds of compensation problems. If I make a conscious effort to lock my elbow in slightly, life is good. I do it on the break and crush racks. I have to dial down to control the cue ball.

I have experimented with using this method, but have had mixed results. I found I had to alter my grip and cock my wrist in or out, to keep a straight stroke. The stance is also a problem as I like to spread out a little to get comfortable. I stand more sideways or linear when I pull my elbow in.

I'd like to hear more thoughts on this approach and other observations when using this method. It is a powerful alignment when you need extreme draw. What about other situations?

Best,
Mike
 
Neil said:
Fran stayed in it apparently trying to learn something. Which , according to her posts, she did learn something from p.m.'s with me.

.
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Um....Neil, I'm not sure what you meant by that but I can assure you that anything I have posted here comes from years of my own expreience. Just want to clarify that for the record.
 
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Neil said:
The shot at me?? You mean where he said I have a chicken wing? That's a shot? The rest of the post was directed at Steve, that's why the op used Steves name. Guess that was a little over your head.;)

What's really priceless is you and a couple others defending a guy that has his head up his arse!:thumbup:

Arrogant, no. not at all. Angry? Yes. Angry at the trolls that have brought a great forum down as low as it is.
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Yes,
Historically, you've provided as much supporting evidence as the guy with the chicken-wing in this thread who's telling me he knows things that he'll kindly charge me for.


The italics part is in reference to Steve and words in bold talk about you.

It is very subtle, there is another layer, trust me it is funny. :)
If you would see less red, it would be easier on the ticker.
Relax, join the great coaches on mountain top and have a joint.
 
pooltchr said:
How do you determine what is natural? Steve
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IMO...Natural starts from a standing upright position.

I will try and explain what I mean by that.

Watch people that "air stroke" while they are (standing up) analyzing the shot they are about to shoot...Notice that every single person strokes the cue across their body. Nobody strokes straight forward or downward or up in the air somewhere.

If you stand relaxed with arms hanging at side....your palms will sort of face your body (naturally)....now if you bring the grip of the cue up into your hanging hand it will naturally be facing across your body....now if you (without twisting your wrist) just fold your arm up about the elbow it will be a movement across your body.

What is next is how to get the cue re-oriented along the shot line so that the natural stroke is now along the aim line (without losing the natural orientation of the cue to the body)

I think the process will be different for almost everyone since eye dominance dictates the cue to be in a different place under the head.

(FOR ME)...I am left handed (left eye dominant)...and I shoot with the cue under my left eye If I start (standing) with feet about shoulder width apart and your arm hanging by my side....I take the natural grip (as described above)....Keeping back foot stationary....I step forward a bit with my front leg....as my stance widens the cue will turn (naturally) to be along the shot line.

If I don't take a wide enough step forward the cue does not turn completely and I have to "force" the cue along the aim line....If I take the proper width of step the cue falls right into place.

With a bit of practice I found that when I step forward if I keep my front foot along the same angle line as my back foot and step forward just far enough to point my front foot at the CB...the cue lines up.

I actually reference a triangle formed by my cue font foot aim line to the CB and my body from front foot to back foot.

Funny thing is that I aim using the triangle formed by the CB - OB - Pocket....and I also align by using a triangle method of shaft, the aim of my front foot, and body.

It is all part of my "bass ackward alignment method...I call it the "T squared" method...LOL:)

I am going to Vegas for BCA...I am going to try and stop by and see Scott and Randy to see what feedback I can get on this crazy method.

I understand Mr. Lee will be there....so I will be trying to get some info on the "V" grip as well...which happens to be another important factor of a "
natural stroke...IMO.:wink:
 
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:)
Neil said:
Well, the jokes on you, because I don't actually shoot like that.;) I do have my left eye over the cue, which brings the cue closer to my body. The chicken wing is usually not there. That photo was taken when I participated in the Glass City Open, and was asked to bend over into shooting position for a photograph. It's not me actually shooting a shot.;)
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To be perfectly honest it means nothing to me if you have chicken wing or not as long as the cue is going straight, balls go in and you can execute any shot it is all good.:)
 
!!! I would like to meet an instructor that can actually deliver the goods !!!

Anyone can say slow down, slower on backswing, stand comfy etc.
Anyone can show positional routes, cool shots, nice safeties.
Anyone can teach mental game.
The fact is there is a tone of books, DVD's on those subjects all you have to do is to read those and you will know a lot, not everything but a lot.

To me a perfect instructor is someone who can look at your misses and tell you:
what you did
why it happened
ways to correct it with options, not just one way (his).


A perfect instructor would know different foot placement, upper body angle, grips, alignments, stroking motions, and most of all how all those interact.

A perfect instructor would understand what the student is going through, because only then he can fix the problem.

Anyone know this guy?
 
Wolven said:
!!! I would like to meet an instructor that can actually deliver the goods !!!

Anyone can say slow down, slower on backswing, stand comfy etc.
Anyone can show positional routes, cool shots, nice safeties.
Anyone can teach mental game.
The fact is there is a tone of books, DVD's on those subjects all you have to do is to read those and you will know a lot, not everything but a lot.

To me a perfect instructor is someone who can look at your misses and tell you:
what you did
why it happened
ways to correct it with options, not just one way (his).


A perfect instructor would know different foot placement, upper body angle, grips, alignments, stroking motions, and most of all how all those interact.

A perfect instructor would understand what the student is going through, because only then he can fix the problem.

Anyone know this guy?
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Yep.......just go look in the mirror.
 
duckie said:
Yep.......just go look in the mirror.
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Great post:D.

Problem no mirrors while shooting.
While learning something awareness is the key.
When shooting for real subconscious must take over.
Have you ever shot lights out, made amazing shots, run tables and for a split moment thought,-' wow, this is great, I wonder how I'm doing that?'. ... and the moment you tried to figure it out it all fell apart......
 
Neil said:
I see you edited it, but since you want to accuse me of making something up, and don't care if p.m.s get posted (which I totally disagree with, they are meant to be private, hence the name), and actually asked me to post our p.m.'s, I will.

post 91-

your post #93-


Now, I just went to my p.m.'s, and what do you know? The only ones missing are the ones to and from you! Now, I know why you edited your post. I don't know what kind of pull you have on the forums, and I really don't care.

I believe you should know what causes the elbow to point in like that, which is why I stated that I was sure all instructors would know why. Yet, you then state what you did in post #93, that you had no idea. You then challenge me to post the p.m.'s, which now are missing, and you edited your post to eliminate the challenge. So, your post #93 still stands on its own. Either you didn't know until I told you, which you then posted on here, or you lied. It's now your story, do what you want to with it. I'm done here.
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Yes, well I thought I was being a little too hard on you to challenge you to post up your PM to me and my response to you so I edited that part out, but I'm totally ok with you posting it because it proves that I stand behind what I posted in this thread. I still have no idea why those players have their elbows in the positions that they are in and I won't know until I see their stances. Right now all I have is speculation.

Neil, if you help me in any way, I will be the first to post it. I believe in giving credit where it's due.

By the way, I will PM you a copy of your original PM and my response. I have no idea why yours are no longer there. I'll leave it up to you if you feel you need to publically post it. I'm cool with whatever way you feel you need to go.
 
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