stun stroke

Many people, like you, use the term "sliding" to mean the cueball doesn't have topspin or backspin on it. I wonder if they're in the majority? I mean it's okay with me :), but I tend to think of it as sliding whenever the cueball isn't rolling. It's just a terminology issue. I guess if one doesn't specify which one they have in mind (which was completely clear in your post), things can get confusing.



Now this is confusing.

If the cueball isn't rolling, its stoped or sliding. With draw or follow the cueball is also sliding until natural roll takes over.
 
...If the cueball isn't rolling, its stoped or sliding. With draw or follow the cueball is also sliding until natural roll takes over.
That's what comes to my mind when someone uses the term "sliding." Certainly, it is being rubbed by the cloth until natural roll sets in. But some clearly knowledgeable players use it to mean the state the cueball's in at the moment it's transitioning from draw to follow (i.e.,has no backspin or topspin).

Jim
 
Thanks Again

Thanks again for the replies.
Since starting this thread ,I have tried to show more attention to the stun stroke.( or whatever you want to call it)
I think I have improved in this area,although I find it difficult to be consistent when I use it.
I also pay more attention when watching other players.I watched Jesse Bowman at White Diamonds Tournament in April.
It seemed he used this stroke/shot
almost exclusively in the match that I watched.
I could hardly believe how easy he made it look. By the way he did snap that tourney.
 
After 1) a straight stroke, 2) shot making, the stun and stop shot is the next most important to your game IMO. Johnnyt
 
Minor thing to add, concerning bar tables

Folks:

Lots of great responses here!

One thing I'd like to add, is the difference certain bar tables (i.e. their cue balls) have on the stun shot.

On any non-coin-op table (or tables that do not have a dedicated cue ball return), the cue ball is the same size, weight, and density as the rest of the object balls. The descriptions mentioned thus far about the stop/stun shots hold true; a straight-in shot hit with stun results in a stop shot. That is, when hit perfectly, the cue ball stops right at the contact perimeter (one ball contact away) of where the object ball once stood. Nearly perfect transfer of energy from the moving object (the cue ball) to the stationary object (the object ball) because of equal mass.

However, on a coin-op bar table (or any size table that has a dedicated cue ball return), you are most likely dealing with either an oversize, overweight, or magnetic cue ball -- which changes the cue ball -to- object ball size/weight/density. The cue ball is heavier. Whenever a moving heavier body hits a stationary lighter object, not all the energy is transferred -- some stays with the cue ball. So you'll find that on bar / coin-op / cueball-return tables (other than Diamond's SmartTables which use an optical sensor), the cue ball slides forward into the space occupied by the object ball, before the stun/stop/draw/follow takes effect. How much of a slide occurs is determined by how hard the shot is hit -- harder = deeper cue ball slide into the area formerly occupied by the object ball, perhaps even beyond that space.

This is detailed in the [great book] 8-ball Bible and understanding this phenomenon is crucial to good bar table play.

One can actually see this phenomenon in action with a heavy cue ball. The Aramith Red Dot Dynamo is perhaps the heaviest cue ball on the market, weighing in at 6.75 ounces (approximately 192 grams). By way of comparison, most object balls weigh in at 5.75 ounces (approximately 164 grams), so there's a full ounce of cue ball that still has undissipated / non-transferred energy after a stun collision with an object ball. That energy has to go somewhere -- and that's continued forward motion. Even with heavy draw applied, one can smash an Aramith Red Dot Dynamo, and it will slide into the space where the object ball once stood (or beyond that space, depending on how hard you hit it), and you can observe the draw taking effect only after the excess "leftover energy" has been burned up as forward motion into that object ball's previous space. A hard draw shot at a slight angle to the object ball results in a peculiar (but pretty!) "J-hook" motion, that's used by some accomplished bar table players to avoid collision with other nearby object balls -- in essence, "J-hooking" around nearby object balls.

The same thing happens with magnetic cue balls, btw, but because they are usually not as heavy as the aforementioned Aramith Red Dot Dynamo, the effect is not as pronounced. (Magnetic balls, such as this one, weigh in at 6.125 ounces [approximately 172 grams], a little lighter than the heavyweight Aramith Red Dot Dynamo.)

Hope this is helpful additional info!
-Sean
 
Thanks again for the replies.
Since starting this thread ,I have tried to show more attention to the stun stroke.( or whatever you want to call it)
I think I have improved in this area,although I find it difficult to be consistent when I use it.
I also pay more attention when watching other players.I watched Jesse Bowman at White Diamonds Tournament in April.
It seemed he used this stroke/shot
almost exclusively in the match that I watched.
I could hardly believe how easy he made it look. By the way he did snap that tourney.

i've watched him for 20 plus years and still that is my worst shot in pool! even when i was playing my best that stun follow was difficult for me! i was hoping the equipment was good so i could hit a slow roll if i could
 
A stun shot is a shot where the cue ball has no spin on it. The cue ball is sliding along the cloth at the time that it contacts the object ball, no side spin, no top spin, no back spin, not rolling. You can hit the cue ball below center and you will still have stun as long as the cue ball is sliding and has no spin on it when it contacts the object ball. If you make a full hit on the object ball with a stun shot, the cue ball will come to a dead stop. If the cue ball hits the object ball at an angle, the cue ball will always travel on a 90 degree angle off the path of the object ball, directly on the tangent line. The path of the cue ball and object ball will form an L shape. It's a very predictable and reliable way to control the cue ball since you can tell exactly what path the cue ball will take.

Here's an article and diagram showing the tangent line on a stun shot.
http://www.easypooltutor.com/article62.html
 
The stun shot can be used to gain position.

When you hit a stun shot (the cue ball sliding without spin when it contacts the object ball) at an angle, the cue ball moves on a path 90 degrees from the path of the object ball.

Snooker players use it to pocket the blue on its spot with the cue ball going at right angles to the path of the blue to collide with the pack to opening up the reds and continuing the run.

By cheating the pocket you can change the direction of the cue ball.
 
Thanks again for the replies.
Since starting this thread ,I have tried to show more attention to the stun stroke.( or whatever you want to call it)
I think I have improved in this area,although I find it difficult to be consistent when I use it.
I also pay more attention when watching other players.I watched Jesse Bowman at White Diamonds Tournament in April.
It seemed he used this stroke/shot
almost exclusively in the match that I watched.
I could hardly believe how easy he made it look. By the way he did snap that tourney.

I don't know if you're just using a misnomer here, or if you actually think of it this way, but stun is not a kind of stroke. Stun is merely a lack of forward or backward spin on the CB. Any kind of "stroke" can produce a stun shot, as long as the correct amount of force and tip placement are used to ensure the CB is not spinning when it contacts the object ball.

It may seem like I'm just nitpicking by correcting your "stun stroke" terminology here, but the reason I jumped in is because some people seem to think you have to stroke a certain way to produce a certain result, and they end up trying to learn several very different kinds of stroking motions for use in different situations, and this is harmful to their game. You only need one stroke for most shots. Different "strokes" only need to come into play when there are obstacles preventing a normal stroke, like using the bridge, or restricting the follow-through to avoid a double-hit, or shooting over a ball.

-Andrew
 
Does LA's 'Stun Stroke' mean the same as everyone else's 'Stun Shot'?

Everyone has been describing stun shots. (How to shoot a stun shot, and various applications where they use stun shots.)

LA's original questions was about a 'Stun Stroke'.
LA, are you asking if there is a different stroke used to stun a ball, or are you referring to simply the tip position on a CB when you stroke the CB as you would for any other shot?

Sorry for being so anal, but I'm just wanting to be sure your question is being addressed correctly.
 
I don't know if you're just using a misnomer here, or if you actually think of it this way, but stun is not a kind of stroke. Stun is merely a lack of forward or backward spin on the CB. Any kind of "stroke" can produce a stun shot, as long as the correct amount of force and tip placement are used to ensure the CB is not spinning when it contacts the object ball.

It may seem like I'm just nitpicking by correcting your "stun stroke" terminology here, but the reason I jumped in is because some people seem to think you have to stroke a certain way to produce a certain result, and they end up trying to learn several very different kinds of stroking motions for use in different situations, and this is harmful to their game. You only need one stroke for most shots. Different "strokes" only need to come into play when there are obstacles preventing a normal stroke, like using the bridge, or restricting the follow-through to avoid a double-hit, or shooting over a ball.

-Andrew

IMHO - there are qute a few millionare Snooker players who would disagree with you:)

I don't entirely understand what you mean by the term 'stroking motions',
but the stun stroke seems quite different to me.

The important point is follow thru. When executing a 'stun stroke' one
uses an abrevieated follow thru.

We used to call it 'killing the cueball', long before I ever heard of stunning the ball, let alone knew what 'stun run through' meant.

Dale
 
A stun shot is a shot where the cue ball has no spin on it. The cue ball is sliding along the cloth at the time that it contacts the object ball, no side spin, no top spin, no back spin, not rolling.

This is correct except for the highlighted part. The presence or absence of sidespin has nothing to do with stun.

pj
chgo
 
This is correct except for the highlighted part. The presence or absence of sidespin has nothing to do with stun.

pj
chgo

Thank you, sir. You are correct. The side spin will not take the cue ball off of the tangent line. Still, if you are shooting a stun shot, you should not have any side spin on the cue ball, unless you're playing the cue ball off of the rail and are trying to change its natural path. If you're trying to stop the cue ball or dead or are just trying to put the cue ball on the tangent line, you shouldn't have any side spin on your cue ball or else it's a bad hit. Side spin changes the path of the cue ball if the cue ball hits the rail. It can also affect the contact point on the object ball, making the cue ball squirt in the opposite direction of the side spin, causing you to hit the object ball at an unintended angle. This can cause you to miss the shot or your position to suffer.
 
Just to boil it all down:

"Stun" simply means that the cue ball has no forward or backward rotation. If the CB is "at stun" when it hits an object ball it will either stop (full ball hit) or carom and remain on the tangent line (cut angle).

The presence or absence of sidespin doesn't change the definition of stun.

When the CB is hit so that it has begun to rotate forward (but isn't fully rolling) when it hits an OB, that is often called "stun rollthrough" or something similar, but it isn't technically a "stun hit".

Like CreeDo, I don't like the term "stun stroke" because:

1. strokes are generally the same (speed and CB contact point are usually the only things that change)

2. "stun hit" (like almost every hit) can be accomplished with different combinations of speed and CB contact point

pj
chgo

P.S. I use the term "hit" to mean what speed and spin the CB has when it hits an OB. I don't use it to mean how the tip hits the CB for the same reasons that I don't like the term "stun stroke": it implies there are differences other than speed and contact point, which I believe mostly don't exist.
 
IMHO - there are qute a few millionare Snooker players who would disagree with you:)

I don't entirely understand what you mean by the term 'stroking motions',
but the stun stroke seems quite different to me.

Some "Experts" teach the need for "Different Strokes" for different shots. I.E. A bank shot stroke, or a draw stroke is different from a follow stroke, which is different from a stun stroke.
This is incorrect. It may work for them, in their mind, but it is not true that it's needed to accomplish the shot.
The CB doesn't care if you jab it, or drop your elbow in your follow through. All you are doing is imparting energy into the cue ball as a specific point. If that energy does not impart spin, but simply makes the cue ball slide over the cloth before it hits the OB, you will get a stun shot.
If you feel you can do that with an abbreviated stroke, that's fine. I believe you can. But that is not necessarily the only way.


The important point is follow thru. When executing a 'stun stroke' one
uses an abrevieated follow thru.

One does not need to use an abbreviated stroke to stun a ball. If your tip position is correct, a normal stroke will do the exact same thing.

We used to call it 'killing the cueball', long before I ever heard of stunning the ball, let alone knew what 'stun run through' meant.

Dale

Regards.....
 
IMHO - there are qute a few millionare Snooker players who would disagree with you:)

Then they'd be rich and wrong.

...the stun stroke seems quite different to me.

The important point is follow thru. When executing a 'stun stroke' one
uses an abrevieated follow thru.

Sorry to disagree, but length of followthrough has nothing to do with what the cue ball does; it only helps to keep your stroke straight and accurate. You can stun the CB with any length of followthrough.

pj
chgo
 
Last edited:
IMHO - there are qute a few millionare Snooker players who would disagree with you:)

I don't entirely understand what you mean by the term 'stroking motions',
but the stun stroke seems quite different to me.

The important point is follow thru. When executing a 'stun stroke' one
uses an abrevieated follow thru.

We used to call it 'killing the cueball', long before I ever heard of stunning the ball, let alone knew what 'stun run through' meant.

Dale

IMHO - there are quite a few millionaire snooker players that use the exact same stroke on every shot, and due to this they've made it accurate and repeatable to an extreme degree not seen in pool.

The stun stroke only differs from the follow stroke in tip placement. Other than that, they're the same stroke.

The stun stroke is equally possible with a full or abbreviated follow-through. The reason the short follow-through helps you "kill" the CB, is because having a short follow through makes you hit the ball softer than you think, because you stop acccelerating the cue earlier in the stroke to anticipate not following through. So you end up with a "kill" shot, because you hit the ball softer.

When using a "stun stroke", I use a backswing proportional to how hard I want to hit the ball, I use a pendulum stroke, I accelerate the cue smoothly up to contact, I hit the ball at or below center according to how far away the OB is and how hard I'm hitting the ball, and I follow through to my natural finish.

Just like any other shot.

-Andrew
 
poolfoole:
... if you are shooting a stun shot, you should not have any side spin on the cue ball, unless you're playing the cue ball off of the rail and are trying to change its natural path. If you're trying to stop the cue ball or dead or are just trying to put the cue ball on the tangent line, you shouldn't have any side spin on your cue ball or else it's a bad hit. Side spin changes the path of the cue ball if the cue ball hits the rail. It can also affect the contact point on the object ball, making the cue ball squirt in the opposite direction of the side spin, causing you to hit the object ball at an unintended angle. This can cause you to miss the shot or your position to suffer..

Sorry to disagree again, but it's often necessary to hit a stun shot with sidespin in oprder to get the cue ball travel you want. You just have to compensate for squirt and throw like always.

However, there is a good reason to avoid the combination of stun and sidespin whenever possible: a stun hit maximizes throw and (maybe more importantly) maximizes the error effect of too much or too little spin, especially at lower amounts.

pj
chgo
 
...However, there is a good reason to avoid the combination of stun and sidespin whenever possible: a stun hit maximizes throw...
I think there is a better reason to avoid the combination of stun and NO sidespin whenever possible, precisely because a stun hit maximizes throw.
 
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