subrail angle?????

[Bigkahuna]

Hello Everyone,

I am changing out my Tour edition Rubber for Brunswick Super Speed on the antique "whatever it is" table. The table has played short on banks since all the work I did and I am looking to correct this. When I say playing short I mean to shoot the three rail kick to the corner pocket on the other side of the table and the cue ball hits the side rail before getting to the pocket. This is just a test I do to see if the table is banking short or long. Often this can vary with just humidity affecting the cloth.

When I originally mounted the rubber I had to mount it kind of low on the subrail like about a 1/16" to get the correct nose height. I am wondering if this is due to the subrail angle being off. Is it 21 degrees?? 22 degrees?? thought it was something like that????

I have also considered making a releif cut on the underside of the rail for the cloth to sit in like the newer tables have to get the rail lower. As it stands now the cloth just staples to the bottom of the rail and this shims the rail upwards an amount equal to the thickness of the cloth.

Just trying to figure out what the plan is before taking the table apart. Thank you for your help.
Noah

 

[Dead Crab]

I would suggest buying the cushion that you want. Then take some spare stock milled to the thickness of subrail desired and cut these into managable sized blocks. Use a compound miter saw to cut various angle bevels on these blocks. Position the cushion on the various bevels until you find the one that brings the nose height to the correct level. Then use this block as a guide to set up whatever device you use to bevel your rails.

Let us know how the cushion change works. If I were you, I wouldn't toss the Championship cushions until you've played on the Bruynswick's a while.

 

[Bigkahuna]

shouldn't I start with checking that angle first?

 

[A-1 billiards]

Hello Everyone,

I am changing out my Tour edition Rubber for Brunswick Super Speed on the antique "whatever it is" table. The table has played short on banks since all the work I did and I am looking to correct this. When I say playing short I mean to shoot the three rail kick to the corner pocket on the other side of the table and the cue ball hits the side rail before getting to the pocket. This is just a test I do to see if the table is banking short or long. Often this can vary with just humidity affecting the cloth.

When I originally mounted the rubber I had to mount it kind of low on the subrail like about a 1/16" to get the correct nose height. I am wondering if this is due to the subrail angle being off. Is it 21 degrees?? 22 degrees?? thought it was something like that????

I have also considered making a releif cut on the underside of the rail for the cloth to sit in like the newer tables have to get the rail lower. As it stands now the cloth just staples to the bottom of the rail and this shims the rail upwards an amount equal to the thickness of the cloth.

Just trying to figure out what the plan is before taking the table apart. Thank you for your help.
Noah

There are several things that can lead to the condition you're describing. The first issue is the pitch angle on the finished cushion. That is the downward angle of the topside of the cushion relative to the impact of the ball into the cushion. Second is the coefficient of friction of the ball, cushion and bed-cloth. The best illustration of this point is that when the cloth is brand new it will slide and the cushions will bank longer than after the table is "broken in" This is a function of increased friction on the playing surface, dirt and chalk also contribute to increased friction and "shorten" the angles of the banks. Third, where is the ball actually striking the cushion on the finished playing surface. 1 inch and 7/16 to the center of the nose of the cushion, +or- 1/64 inches is the standard for 2 1/4 pool balls. This is sometimes changed during the installation of the rails on "T" rail tables. If the pitch of the rail was increased after tightening it would have the effect of lowering the nose height. Fourth, high humidity will also make the cushions bank "shorter".

To determine which of these issues is causing your problem, I would suggest you measure the nose height from the surface of the bed of the table. Check the relative humidity of the room, 50% or less is best. Make sure the table is vacuumed clean of chalk and the rails are wiped down with a very slightly dampened cloth. Clean the balls with a good cleaner/ polish such as Arimith purple ball cleaner.

If you are still experiencing problems, I will be going through the Portland/Westbrook area next week on my way to Waterville Me to recover the tables at TJ's old room. I'll be glad to stop by and check out your situation on my way up or the way back.

Call either way
Jay 603 765 6160

 

[Dead Crab]

shouldn't I start with checking that angle first?

Well, you want to start in the general neighborhood. But on my compound miter saw, the angle markings for bevel are very "approximate". What is important is that the bevel fits the width of the base of the cushion, and brings it to the proper height. If you have a way of confidently setting up perfect angles, then you can calculate it out and cut ... BUT, wood thickness has some deviations from perfection and the expected 1 and 3/4" subrail thickness might actually be 1 and 13/16" (or worse) so a bevel calculated tor 1-3/4" will have an imperfect nose height.

 

[A-1 billiards]

Well, you want to start in the general neighborhood. But on my compound miter saw, the angle markings for bevel are very "approximate". What is important is that the bevel fits the width of the base of the cushion, and brings it to the proper height. If you have a way of confidently setting up perfect angles, then you can calculate it out and cut ... BUT, wood thickness has some deviations from perfection and the expected 1 and 3/4" subrail thickness might actually be 1 and 13/16" (or worse) so a bevel calculated tor 1-3/4" will have an imperfect nose height.

Well stated by Dead Crab. It can be difficult to fit up new cushions on "T" rail tables because you have some variables that can potentially effect the final playing surface. Such as If the wooden rail liners are not uniformly attached to the vertical surface of the rail (between the feather strip dado and rail). I've seen these liners vary in both height and thickness, both of which would have to be corrected before a uniform bevel could be quoted.

The bevel on a J.E. Came table with K-66 cushions would run between 25-27 degrees vs. a Brunswick with K-55 profile at 20-22 degrees of bevel. Both of these scenarios presume a 90 degree attachment of the rail to the slate. You can start to see the dilemma of quoting a set bevel angle for your table. Furthermore when you run the rails through the table saw you are removing material that will effect the playing dimensions of the table (50x100 inches).

Finally, the playing characteristics of your table are going to come down to the proper application of the cushion to the rail at the right angles with the proper cushion height with the correct cushion with a finished playing surface of 50x100 inches. Proper application of the cloth on the rails plays an important role in final play of the table as well. Keep in mind that a fast cloth like Simonis 760 or Velocity pro will tend to bank a little shorter than 860 or a slower non worstered fabric.

Hope this helps
Jay

 

[Tbeaux]

Bigkahuna I wish I had seen the other thread about your table earlier. Those cigarette burns can be removed by sanding the burn only with a fiberglass brush used for electronic work, then wet the depression with a few drops of hot water to raise the wood grain (might also want to heat the drops with blow dryer) then spot sand the raised wood, redo if necessary to remove full depression. Same thing you do to remove dents from cue shafts.

 

[Dartman]

Well stated by Dead Crab. It can be difficult to fit up new cushions on "T" rail tables because you have some variables that can potentially effect the final playing surface. Such as If the wooden rail liners are not uniformly attached to the vertical surface of the rail (between the feather strip dado and rail). I've seen these liners vary in both height and thickness, both of which would have to be corrected before a uniform bevel could be quoted.

The bevel on a J.E. Came table with K-66 cushions would run between 25-27 degrees vs. a Brunswick with K-55 profile at 20-22 degrees of bevel. Both of these scenarios presume a 90 degree attachment of the rail to the slate. You can start to see the dilemma of quoting a set bevel angle for your table. Furthermore when you run the rails through the table saw you are removing material that will effect the playing dimensions of the table (50x100 inches).

Finally, the playing characteristics of your table are going to come down to the proper application of the cushion to the rail at the right angles with the proper cushion height with the correct cushion with a finished playing surface of 50x100 inches. Proper application of the cloth on the rails plays an important role in final play of the table as well. Keep in mind that a fast cloth like Simonis 760 or Velocity pro will tend to bank a little shorter than 860 or a slower non worstered fabric.

Hope this helps
Jay

FWIW - when I recut the bevel for that arcade table it was to 20 degrees and the cushions (k55) did not have an over/under lap on the liners. Nose height was dead on 1 7/16"

IMO Crab makes an excellent point to rebevel a blank that has the same thickness as the original liner then check the nose height.

 

[Bigkahuna]

The bevel on a J.E. Came table with K-66 cushions would run between 25-27 degrees vs. a Brunswick with K-55 profile at 20-22 degrees of bevel. Both of these scenarios presume a 90 degree attachment of the rail to the slate. You can start to see the dilemma of quoting a set bevel angle for your table. Furthermore when you run the rails through the table saw you are removing material that will effect the playing dimensions of the table (50x100 inches).
Hope this helps
Jay

Jay,

This all helps. This table is so much better than when I started I know I am close. I don't want to call you on Labor Day weekend but call me anytime that is convenient for you. I have an offer for you if you are heading to TJs. The number is 207 229 4834.

Noah

 

[Bigkahuna]

Help with this please!

Jay from A-1 was nice enough to stop by here last week and give me his opinions on the issue of poor cushion responce on my table. Really a professional guy and went out of his way to meet me. Glad you didn't get on that ferry Jay! You would have been taking the real round about way to get here! Anyways, Jay suggested that although I do have a problem my table plays better than most and I should leave it alone for now. I played a couple of racks on it yesterday and just could not stand it.

I have since pulled the rails off and removed the cushions. I cannot see in any way that the subrails are loose and the cushions were adhered very well with the 3m adhesive. I did have to mount the cushions low by maybe 1/16" to get the correct cushion height when I originally put this table together. I did have concern about this when i put the table together (See thread titled "Diary of an Antique Brunswick").

My first thought was to make a relief cut on the underside of the rail for the cloth which would lower the rail height then I could mount the cushions higher on the rail. Of course this will affect the playing surface. As I move the cushion up the subrail the playing surface will grow, by how much I do not know?

Earlier in this post Jay said sub rail angle should be 20 to 22 degrees for k55 Brunswick and 25 to 27 degrees for k66 and JE Came. So I went down to home depot and got a General Tools protractor and measured the subrail angle which came in at just over 23 degrees, (Crap!). When I originally did this table I really did think it was a Brunswick which would take K55. The table had k66 on it and the play surface was larger than 50x100 so it made all the sense in the world that it should take k55. The subrails are about 1 3/8" wide which would be way too wide for K66 which as I recall is 1 1/8"

I am really scratching my head now and hope some of you guys wouldn't mind offering up suggestions. My cushions did have a thoink noise that to me sounded more like it was coming from the rubber that the wood. Is it possible the the more nose up mounting of the cushion could have contributed to thisnoise and poor responce? What is my best approach from hear? Why is my subrail angle smack between 20 and 27 degrees, is there another profile? Is just over 23 degrees close enough? Should I just relief cut and lower the rails to move up the cushions? Is getting it right to replace the subrails and start from scratch?

 

[Donny Wessels]

your in way over your head for a do-it-yourselfer. I have been working on tables for 18 years and I would turn down your job because I don't specialize in Antique pool tables. you should call someone that is known for working on Antiques, this is going to be the only way your table is going to play to your expectations.

 

[realkingcobra]

Hello Everyone,

I have also considered making a releif cut on the underside of the rail for the cloth to sit in like the newer tables have to get the rail lower. As it stands now the cloth just staples to the bottom of the rail and this shims the rail upwards an amount equal to the thickness of the cloth.

Just trying to figure out what the plan is before taking the table apart. Thank you for your help.
Noah

Making a relief cut(dado) on the bottom side of the rails is not going to help you any because T-rails bolt into the side of the slate straight up and down offering no pressure to tilt or change the angle of the cushion nose what so ever because they don't bolt straight down on the slate like modern era tables to, which is why there's a dado relief for cloth on newer rails...unless you're talking about Olhausen tables:grin:

You can not measure the bevel of the rails correctly unless you measure the bevel of the rail to the flatness of the slate with the rails BOLTED to the slates...then and only then are you going to get a correct reading of the bevel needed to mount the cushion...BUT, this also is in respect to just exactly how thick are the rails at the top of the rails in relationship to the surface of the slate....and with ONE thickness of cloth mounted under the rails between the slate and rails as if the rails were already recovered...then and only then are you going to be able to correctly determine the correct bevel to resaw the rails to to be able to mount the cushions of your choice to the sub-rails and have them play correctly:grin:

 

[Dartman]

... The subrails are about 1 3/8" wide which would be way too wide for K66 which as I recall is 1 1/8"

And also too wide for K55 (1 1/4").

 

[OTLB]

Well I said it way back, that is an Oliver Briggs table but noone wanted to listen to me.

They had their own cushions with steel bands in them and thats why they called them ELECTRIC. The bevel is 17.

Whats on it now? obviously it needs to have new rail liners if you want it right.

 

[A-1 billiards]

Jay from A-1 was nice enough to stop by here last week and give me his opinions on the issue of poor cushion responce on my table. Really a professional guy and went out of his way to meet me. Glad you didn't get on that ferry Jay! You would have been taking the real round about way to get here! Anyways, Jay suggested that although I do have a problem my table plays better than most and I should leave it alone for now. I played a couple of racks on it yesterday and just could not stand it.

I have since pulled the rails off and removed the cushions. I cannot see in any way that the sub-rails are loose and the cushions were adhered very well with the 3m adhesive. I did have to mount the cushions low by maybe 1/16" to get the correct cushion height when I originally put this table together. I did have concern about this when i put the table together (See thread titled "Diary of an Antique Brunswick").

My first thought was to make a relief cut on the underside of the rail for the cloth which would lower the rail height then I could mount the cushions higher on the rail. Of course this will affect the playing surface. As I move the cushion up the subrail the playing surface will grow, by how much I do not know?

Earlier in this post Jay said sub rail angle should be 20 to 22 degrees for k55 Brunswick and 25 to 27 degrees for k66 and JE Came. So I went down to home depot and got a General Tools protractor and measured the subrail angle which came in at just over 23 degrees, (Crap!). When I originally did this table I really did think it was a Brunswick which would take K55. The table had k66 on it and the play surface was larger than 50x100 so it made all the sense in the world that it should take k55. The subrails are about 1 3/8" wide which would be way too wide for K66 which as I recall is 1 1/8"

I am really scratching my head now and hope some of you guys wouldn't mind offering up suggestions. My cushions did have a thoink noise that to me sounded more like it was coming from the rubber that the wood. Is it possible the the more nose up mounting of the cushion could have contributed to thisnoise and poor responce? What is my best approach from hear? Why is my subrail angle smack between 20 and 27 degrees, is there another profile? Is just over 23 degrees close enough? Should I just relief cut and lower the rails to move up the cushions? Is getting it right to replace the subrails and start from scratch?

After measuring and inspecting your rails I can assure you that the liner bevel angle of 23 degrees is wrong. The first dead giveaway is that the cushion in not mounted flush with the top of the rail liner. I understand why you did this, because mounting the cushion flush would have brought your nose height up to high. This would require the liners to be re-beveled to 20-22 degrees, Which just happens to be the standard for Brunswick rails and K-55 cushions.

Their is another condition going on as well, the cushions making a thudding sound when the ball hits them is usually indicative of something loose in the rail, such as the rubber cushion, the liner, the rail itself from the slate or some crack or damage to the structures mentioned above. I would inspect all the rails closely before cutting the liners or reapplying the cushions. You might go through the whole process and still have a thud to your rails.

It was a pleasure to meet with you and your table is a real "gem", however if you are looking for the level of play that a Diamond or a Gold Crown would provide you might always be disappointed with your current table. In your defense, your table is perfectly refinished, very level and plays better than 95% of the tables of that vintage.

Good luck and feel free to call me anytime, I'll be going through your area again the second week of October.

Jay

 

[Bigkahuna]

your in way over your head for a do-it-yourselfer. I have been working on tables for 18 years and I would turn down your job because I don't specialize in Antique pool tables. you should call someone that is known for working on Antiques, this is going to be the only way your table is going to play to your expectations.

Donny,
I certainly wouldn't want to do this job for money either.

 

[Bigkahuna]

Making a relief cut(dado) on the bottom side of the rails is not going to help you any because T-rails bolt into the side of the slate straight up and down offering no pressure to tilt or change the angle of the cushion nose what so ever because they don't bolt straight down on the slate like modern era tables to, which is why there's a dado relief for cloth on newer rails...unless you're talking about Olhausen tables:grin:

You can not measure the bevel of the rails correctly unless you measure the bevel of the rail to the flatness of the slate with the rails BOLTED to the slates...then and only then are you going to get a correct reading of the bevel needed to mount the cushion...BUT, this also is in respect to just exactly how thick are the rails at the top of the rails in relationship to the surface of the slate....and with ONE thickness of cloth mounted under the rails between the slate and rails as if the rails were already recovered...then and only then are you going to be able to correctly determine the correct bevel to resaw the rails to to be able to mount the cushions of your choice to the sub-rails and have them play correctly:grin:

Hi Glen,
Thank you for the input. The subrail is at a 23 degree angle relative to the table surface. I believe I could have lowered the rails with a relief cut as there is plenty of room around the bolt holes. However, if this is not the correct thing to do then I am not doing it. There is only one way to do things. I think you are suggesting as dead crab did that I need to do some mock ups until I have angle, nose height and playing surface correct?????????? As far as changing them out do I just saw the rail lliners off, replace them and then fit them?

"BUT, this also is in respect to just exactly how thick are the rails at the top of the rails in relationship to the surface of the slate." Not sure I understand what you are saying here.

 

[Bigkahuna]

And also too wide for K55 (1 1/4").

Yes, that is why I mentioned that dimension.

 

[Bigkahuna]

Well I said it way back, that is an Oliver Briggs table but noone wanted to listen to me.

They had their own cushions with steel bands in them and thats why they called them ELECTRIC. The bevel is 17.

Whats on it now? obviously it needs to have new rail liners if you want it right.

John,
I myself do not believe I doubted you. Those rails look awfully familiar!

OK, so perhaps if the Oliver Briggs tables were at 17 degrees then someone may have cut the subrail to install a modern cushion profile. This would account for the wider subrail at 1 1/4". Too bad they did not get that right. Currently it has k-55 but I took off k-66.

 

[Bigkahuna]

After measuring and inspecting your rails I can assure you that the liner bevel angle of 23 degrees is wrong. The first dead giveaway is that the cushion in not mounted flush with the top of the rail liner. I understand why you did this, because mounting the cushion flush would have brought your nose height up to high. This would require the liners to be re-beveled to 20-22 degrees, Which just happens to be the standard for Brunswick rails and K-55 cushions.

Their is another condition going on as well, the cushions making a thudding sound when the ball hits them is usually indicative of something loose in the rail, such as the rubber cushion, the liner, the rail itself from the slate or some crack or damage to the structures mentioned above. I would inspect all the rails closely before cutting the liners or reapplying the cushions. You might go through the whole process and still have a thud to your rails.

It was a pleasure to meet with you and your table is a real "gem", however if you are looking for the level of play that a Diamond or a Gold Crown would provide you might always be disappointed with your current table. In your defense, your table is perfectly refinished, very level and plays better than 95% of the tables of that vintage.

Good luck and feel free to call me anytime, I'll be going through your area again the second week of October.

Jay

Jay,
Thank you, I know I am never going to get to the playability of either the Diamond or GC it just can't happen with a T-rail design, however, I can make improvements. With everything I am hearing from everyone here, (Thank you all!), I am thinking the best route is to cut the rail liners off and install new ones. Although, I cannot see that the rail liners are loose in any way there could be some lack of adhesion in places.