Just so you flamers get it right, the shafts everyone is so head over heals about used to be the norm for cuemakers. Now that the wood is harder to find some have taken the extra time to get what they were taught works.hangemhigh said:
Sugartree Sneaky
- Thread starter via
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bish4201 said:
I think you're getting your TS's and ST's discombobulated, and it makes your argument extremely confusing to follow.
I have NEVER doubted Eric's ability to build a great playing cue. But he is not the only cuemaker on the planet building a great playing cue.
I also do not think that Searing cues belong in your argument either. First and foremost, before all the collectors and flippers jumped on the bandwagon, Dennis builds players' cues. He strives to craft the best playing cues that is possible for a human being to craft. Nothing leaves his shop that is not absolutely perfect...PERFECT...period! With no disrespect to Eric or others, but Dennis is on a very short list of the very highest caliber cuemakers on the planet.
Okay....I happen to have a good friend, who, curious about all the hype, pitted an ST cue he had, head to head against offerings from Zylr, Barnhart, and Tucker. He's a picky cue guy. His unbiased results were that all of the above mentioned cues in his head to head test were pretty well on par with each other, with regards to not only playability, but fit and finish as well. I believe that his final conclusion was that while they all played extremely similar, the Tucker may have had a slight edge, overall. I would like to note that all the cues tested were of like pin and joint configurations...and extremely close with regards to weight and balance. He has since parted with the ST, Zylr, and Barnhart (if I am not mistaken), but will never part with his Tuckers.
There are some cuemakers' cues out there that one can sorta, kinda justify the astronomical asking prices for...partly because of their earned 'chops' over the years, and relative availability. I, however, do not feel that the secondary on Eric's cues is one of those cases. I'm sorry, I really don't. The same thing happened a few years back with Zylr cues...and now they are down to a reasonable/realistic market value. The same will happen with the ST's. It just happens to be the current cue du jour...and a current money maker for the flippers amongst us. It's just a shame that those who acquired these cues are not willing to put that money back into to whose pockets deserve it....Eric Crisp.
Lisa
I personally like sugartree cues. Anxiously awaiting my new one. My old one is mentioned in this thread, and wish I had kept it to begin with. I like the taper on the shafts, and for my game its near perfect. I personally like the hit more than the scruggs cues I've owned (believe 13 of them), and more than any other cue I've owned.
Some people will love them, some people will buy them to resale, others will just hold onto the cues they already own. I sold mine because I needed the money, and cues are always the first thing I sell. Always regret it later as well.
This particular cue looks to be a very nice representation of Eric's cue making skills. I have zero doubt the new owner will enjoy it whether they resale it later or play with it.
Some people will love them, some people will buy them to resale, others will just hold onto the cues they already own. I sold mine because I needed the money, and cues are always the first thing I sell. Always regret it later as well.
This particular cue looks to be a very nice representation of Eric's cue making skills. I have zero doubt the new owner will enjoy it whether they resale it later or play with it.
Lisa,
Obviously, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and that is what forums like this are all about. However, you seem to have a bit of an obsession when comes to the pricing of Eric's cues on the secondary market. The market will bear what the market will bear. You seem to be fine with the fact that Searings are *extremely* high priced players cues (the majority of Searings are simply designed players cues). OK, OK...I get the fact that Dennis is very anal about his construction methods and I certainly appreciate that aspect of his cuemaking skills. But Eric is also very particular about the work he puts out and players and collectors alike have figured that out.
I believe you have stated you have never played with one of Eric's cues. If you have not, that may be the reason you are having trouble with the state of the current market for Eric's cues.
Obviously, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and that is what forums like this are all about. However, you seem to have a bit of an obsession when comes to the pricing of Eric's cues on the secondary market. The market will bear what the market will bear. You seem to be fine with the fact that Searings are *extremely* high priced players cues (the majority of Searings are simply designed players cues). OK, OK...I get the fact that Dennis is very anal about his construction methods and I certainly appreciate that aspect of his cuemaking skills. But Eric is also very particular about the work he puts out and players and collectors alike have figured that out.
I believe you have stated you have never played with one of Eric's cues. If you have not, that may be the reason you are having trouble with the state of the current market for Eric's cues.
cubswin said:
Your right, it is a very nice representation of Eric's cuemaking skills...as are the other examples that have been posted here.
Eric's cuemaking skills have never been in question. That is really not the issue here. I am breaking my own rule by doing this, but, ah well...sometimes you just have to say it.......there is no way that most people on this forum are going to pay $1400 for a sneaky pete! That is just the reality of it all. I am sure that someone will....'cuz they just HAVE to have one. But for most, it's just craziness.
Lisa
ridewiththewind said:
If the word sneaky pete wasn't used in the title, and we substituted "full splice", the money wouldn't be a issue. I've seen some very plain cues sell for more from others with a reputation for playability. Don't really see the issue. The cue will sell for what it sells for. Much like the Rambow thats on the front page that started out at 8k. Sooner or later the price gets right. In this case I don't think its out of line starting price since it has two shafts, and ring work. If the super plain sneaky mentioned in this thread has been sold for over 500 three times now as a well used cue (my old cue), then this cue just with the extra shaft is already worth more. Add in the ring work, the different pin and the fact that its essentially a new cue.
Another point that no one seems to get also...
In addition to tap tapping this point made by snowmon...
Another point that no one seems to get also there is a big difference between a cue made for someone else that you buy and a cue that is "made" for you by the cuemaker themselves to your own specs and playing style. I will never again buy a cue other than directly from the cuemaker, most of the time cues have either been altered or just plain do not work for you...then the comments come back that the cue doesnt play well, etc. I have never been disappointed when a cue has been made for me, repeatedly though buying cues on the secondary market, especially over the net is very difficult.
One thing I can guarantee is that this sneaky will play very well, as it is brand new (I would assume un-altered), knowing that you will be getting a great player and a collectible cue.
So lets cool it down flamers
In addition to tap tapping this point made by snowmon...
snowmon34 said:
Another point that no one seems to get also there is a big difference between a cue made for someone else that you buy and a cue that is "made" for you by the cuemaker themselves to your own specs and playing style. I will never again buy a cue other than directly from the cuemaker, most of the time cues have either been altered or just plain do not work for you...then the comments come back that the cue doesnt play well, etc. I have never been disappointed when a cue has been made for me, repeatedly though buying cues on the secondary market, especially over the net is very difficult.
One thing I can guarantee is that this sneaky will play very well, as it is brand new (I would assume un-altered), knowing that you will be getting a great player and a collectible cue.
So lets cool it down flamers
Worminator said:
Jamie...you know me to be one of the more level-headed posters here...so, I guess it takes a lot to get me going...lol.
It's not even so much that this is even about Eric's cues.....unfortunately, his happens to be the latest example of a larger picture here. Do I think that it craziness to pay $6-7K for a PJ Searing on the secondary...of course I do!!! Especially given the fact that I know roughly what these cues would go for directly from Dennis.
Look, I am not opposed to someone making a little money here or there. And I fully understand that certain people are going to pay what the market will bear. But when the pricing begins to border on the ridiculous...well....I guess I am a 'cuemaker' kinda person. What I mean to say is, I guess I have a really hard time when people begin to profit significantly off of a cuemaker's hard work, time, and materials. I would suspect, that after a point, it would begin to bug some cuemakers too.
I know, I know....it's business....and I am a hopeless idealist. As an example....I will not myself purchase precious gemstones...I'm talking diamonds, tanzanite...you get the picture. Why? Because the people who are doing all the work...the diggers, and cutters...get pratically nothing for their efforts...while the fat cats at DeBeers and others are making stupid money...and create the stranglehold on supply, to make themselves even richer. If I am going to pay $5K for a stone....I would much, much rather hand that $5K to the person who did the work, and needs it most...than to those who are 'creating' the market to begin with.
I hope this is making a bit of sense as to where I am coming from. I had the exact same problem when everyone went crazy over Kerry's cues...and the prices starting getting a little nutty.
I also have to ask you this...I know that you try to keep your pricing on Eric's cues as close to what he would be asking directly....with respect to the fact that you have overhead and other additional expenses...along with a small profit margin. Doesn't it bother you when you see Eric's cues going for crazy numbers that even you would have a hard time asking?
Okay....I have said it before, and I will say it again....I have absolutely no quibble with Eric or his ability to build an outstanding playing cue. I like most of what I see, with regards to his aesthetics...in fact, you have seen me gush over one or two.
And yes, you are correct, I, myself have never played with one of Eric's cues. No one, currently, that lives near me has one for me to try. I would love to be able to do my own comparison, instead of relying on other's comparisons, to formulate my own opinion. Alas, since his list is closed, and I cannot bring myself to pay the some of the current asking prices on the secondary...I likely never will. It's okay....I realize that not everyone can have an ST, or a RH, or a Zylr, or even a Tucker, for that matter. I have two pretty sporty players that I am currently extremely happy with...and have turned down offers on...good offers too. In my mind, it just wouldn't be right for me to try to make money off of the cuemaker who was nice enough to craft me a cue to begin with...sometimes, no small feat.
I hope this clarifies my standpoint on the subject. I would, and have...although not quite as vocally as this thread, spoken out about secondary pricing on other cuemakers' cues. Again, unfortunately, Eric's just happen to be the latest example.
I also apologize to everyone else in this thread, as, I really should have taken this over to the Cue Discussion forum, and not here. I have likely done a great disservice to 'via'...and for that I most humbly apologize. It was not my intent....just got a bit carried away up here on my soapbox.
Lisa
snowmon34 said:
You're right, I probably shouldn't have done it...and in over 4 years on this Forum...it's the first time that I have actually spoken out about pricing in a For Sale thread...broke my own rule!
The sad fact is, that it's out there now, and I cannot take it back. All I can do, is what I have already done, and apologize to 'via' for my mis-step. The apology is sincere, and I will provide no further comment in this thread, so that it might resume it's original intent.
Lisa
I'm going to say that for the most part it doesn't bother me what the cue trades for after it leaves my hands. I made or in some cases lost whatever amount and I'm done with it.
The fact that Eric's cues consistantly return more money than we sell them for brand new just insures that the next batch we get is going to sell even faster. Eric controls all the pricing on his cues when they are brand new and I know that he and Jamie discuss the amount that we retail them for.
Eric does always make a limited number of simpler cues in each batch. His hope is that by limiting the amount of retail mark up, a player can afford them.
After they leave our hands pricing is what the market will bear.
The fact that Eric's cues consistantly return more money than we sell them for brand new just insures that the next batch we get is going to sell even faster. Eric controls all the pricing on his cues when they are brand new and I know that he and Jamie discuss the amount that we retail them for.
Eric does always make a limited number of simpler cues in each batch. His hope is that by limiting the amount of retail mark up, a player can afford them.
After they leave our hands pricing is what the market will bear.
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I'm guessing the cue on the right can't be had for less than 3 grand then, huh? *laughing* I love Sugartree's. I've probably had the good fortune of owning, and playing with, as many Sugartree's as anyone on this forum. I personally love them. That's my taste. It's all that matters to me. They are the epitomy of form and function...to ME. That being said...I've always been willing to pay the prices in here...because I feel they're worth it in my experience. Eric's simply one of the finest examples of humanity I've come across. I wonder what he thinks when every time one of his cues comes up for sale on the secondary market (here), a fuss is always raised over the price. I mean...obviously they're not overpriced if people are buying them. They rarely come available which means for the most part the people buying them...keep them. His order list is long, the cues rarely come up for sale...and people clearly want them. Who cares what the price is...especially if you're not in market for one? And if you are...well...the price is what it is. It's amazing how this kind of stuff comes up next to never, with any other cuemaker. Beautiful cue, via. Nuff said. If you can get $2K for your cue...so be it. Good luck in your sale. Lemme know if you'll part with the bad oscar on the right.
snowmon34 said:
I disagree...
Once a post that is not offensive or vulgar is out there, especially a post that is just an opinion, it should stay. That is not to say it is not in poor taste or follows proper selling etiquette.
Lisa:
You *are* usually level-headed, but this one always seems to get your panties in a wad.
To answer you question directly...yes, it does bother me when I see this kind of relative pricing on cues (Sugartrees et al) for the very same reason it bothers you...the cuemaker. But that is the way it works...and the price of poker for ST's just went up...
And just as an FYI...I do not have a ST waiting list established. When I get them, most people know I'm getting them before they arrive.
Worminator said:I disagree...
Once a post that is not offensive or vulgar is out there, especially a post that is just an opinion, it should stay. That is not to say it is not in poor taste or follows proper selling etiquette.
Lisa:
You *are* usually level-headed, but this one always seems to get your panties in a wad.
To answer you question directly...yes, it does bother me when I see this kind of relative pricing on cues (Sugartrees et al) for the very same reason it bothers you...the cuemaker. But that is the way it works...and the price of poker for ST's just went up...
And just as an FYI...I do not have a ST waiting list established. When I get them, most people know I'm getting them before they arrive.
So...when are you getting more?
ridewiththewind said:
Lisa, this is an open forum and everyone is entitled to their opinions. I hold no grudge against you. $1400 may seem a little high for a sneaky but I must stress that all materials used are top notch. Its a high end sneaky pete. I'm not trying to pitch a sale here, but the balance, feel and hit of this cue is simply awesome. If not for the fact that I need the cash, this cue would be staying with me. This is the last sugartree cue I have with me and I don't know when I'll be able to get one again..
Worminator said:I disagree...
Once a post that is not offensive or vulgar is out there, especially a post that is just an opinion, it should stay. That is not to say it is not in poor taste or follows proper selling etiquette.
Lisa:
You *are* usually level-headed, but this one always seems to get your panties in a wad.
To answer you question directly...yes, it does bother me when I see this kind of relative pricing on cues (Sugartrees et al) for the very same reason it bothers you...the cuemaker. But that is the way it works...and the price of poker for ST's just went up...
And just as an FYI...I do not have a ST waiting list established. When I get them, most people know I'm getting them before they arrive.
Jamie...two things:
1) Thank you for not only recognizing, but understanding the intelligent parts of my posts.
2) Thank you for not flaming me for the unintelligent parts of my posts.
Lisa
via said:
Via...you sir, are a class act.
You far out-classed me in this thread...by a mile. Lisa